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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmradioguy View Post
    As has been talked about to death, there's very little arm fatique generated from the knuckleball. It doesn't matter what he was throwing before his mid-30's. He has a healthy arm right now, and now he's throwing a pitch that causes little stress on the arm.

    It's injury and/or loss in generated power that does most non-knuckleballers in before their 40th birthday. The reason that the exceptional knuckleballers can pitch into their mid-40's effectively is that neither are concerns. Even if he lost 10 to 15mph off his 80mph knuckleball, he'd still be throwing in the mid-60's.

    The difference between him and a Tim Wakefield is the quality of his knuckleball and his control of it. Niekro isn't in the hall of fame because he threw his knuckleball in the mid-60's. He's in the hall because he mastered the pitch itself. Dickey appears to have not only done that in a few short years, he's way ahead of Neikro in arm strength at the same age, which is why I argue his decline could very well be even further off than guys like Hough or Neikro.

    He'll likely have more longevity than a flame-thrower ... but his knuckleball is unique. Yes, it's better, but it's also thrown harder, which WILL cause more stress on the arm than the Wakefield knuckler, for instance. And his knuckleball may not work at 65 mph (like Wakefield likely couldn't make his knuckler work at 80 mph, even though he could, at one point, at least throw that hard).

    So, it's a safer bet that he'll be able to sustain his level of quality for longer than the typical pitcher, but the wear-and-tear factor is greater than that of past knuckleball pitchers.

    Throwing 65 is like tossing in the backyard. Throwing 80 still creates substantial torque on the body. You can see this in Dickey's motion v. Wakefield's. Dickey has the full delivery and follow-through. Wakefield looked like he was trying not to throw too hard for fear his 10-year old son wouldn't catch it.

    But it'd be silly not to pursue Dickey.
    Last edited by Imwrong; 12-09-2012 at 07:42 PM.

  2. #122
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    I found an interesting article that ESPN did on Dickey in September, it's an interesting read and it should shed some light on the situation. Another interesting point is that Dickey was born without a UCL (the elbow ligament that Hutchison tore), which causes extra stress on the rest of his body. I'd agree with Dickey having 4 seasons left in his career.

    TO HEAR METS ACE R.A. DICKEY talk about the knuckleball is to hear a man talk about faith. "You either embrace it for what it is -- a pitch that is reliant on an amalgam of forces both seen and unseen -- or you allow it to drive you half out of your mind," writes the 10-year MLB vet in his 2012 autobiography, Wherever I Wind Up. "I embrace it."

    And for good reason. At 37, Dickey had a career-best 18 wins through Sept. 13, after just 20 over the past three seasons. But his late success isn't all about faith. Metrics show that the righty's arm is nearly five years younger than a conventional pitcher's.

    That's what Insider Dan Szymborski found in his study of throwers. First, he divided all hurlers in MLB history into two groups: regular pitchers and knuckleballers. He then broke down how much of each group's career remained after every season from ages 19 to 41. Both groups begin with a career expectancy average of about 99 percent, meaning a pitcher can expect that 99 percent of his career is left. But by 30, a knuckleballer's CEA is twice that of a regular pitcher's. At Dickey's age, a knuckleballer has a 13.4 percent CEA, almost equal to a 32-year-old conventional pitcher's.

    The first-time All-Star has already lasted longer than three-fourths of the knucklers in our study, and he is far from finished. Szymborski found that knuckleballers who pitched 50 or more innings in the majors at 37 had an average of 814 1/3 innings left, or about four seasons. Dickey didn't adopt the pitch until 2005, but considering he's thrown about 1,000 innings in the majors -- knuckleball legend Tim Wakefield had twice that at 37 -- he might last even longer.

    Truth is, it's shocking Dickey is still around. He doesn't have an ulnar collateral ligament, which often must be repaired by Tommy John surgery, and its absence puts stress on all other parts of the joint. "If a pitcher has no UCL, he must compensate with extra compression between his elbow bones and/or extra tension in the other ligaments and tendons," says Glenn Fleisig, research director at the American Sports Medicine Institute. "That is quite remarkable."

    So how does the knuckleball help Dickey defy science? The pitch requires less velocity than a fastball to be effective, so the arm experiences less stress. "Ligaments and tendons are like rubber bands," Fleisig says. "Stretch them as far as you can and over time they'll develop small tears until they break. If you pitch at submaximal effort, the rubber band doesn't tear at all."

    We can hear Mets skipper Terry Collins now: "Okay, guys, I want submaximal effort from everyone!"
    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/83...-espn-magazine
    Last edited by jaysfan4ever; 12-09-2012 at 07:57 PM.

  3. #123
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    Anyone watch the documentary knuckleball? it's about Tim Wakefield and R A Dickey with interviews from both and also ones from Phil niekro, charlie hough. All the guys know each other and they exchage advice about the pitch. I'm not big on a knuckleball fan you have to put up with the stolen bases, passed balls inconsistany, cracked finger nail. but man when it's on what a pitch, one thing about Dicky is when you hear his life story has been through more things then most people and he keeps coming out on top, def a great quality in a pitcher the guy can battle

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysfan4ever View Post
    Yeah, this is why I'm shocked that people are writing off Gose as a bat that's probably not gonna develop. Dude's 22, not even major league ready, and his bat is arguably his worst tool... obviously his swing is gonna be bad. Chances are that this guy is the next Devon White. Sure that bat itself probably ends up below average at the major league level, but add in 40+ stolen bases each year and potentially amazing defence and you've got yourself a star. I'd project him as a Michael Bourn-type player, with less batting average and more power. And we've got this guy cheap for the next 6 or 7 years.

    Gose is a guy like Mike Olt, someone you might swap straight up for a pitcher like Dickey if you're feeling lucky, but not someone you need to build around to get a deal done.

    Apparently Ken Rosenthal agrees with me:



    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/v...termine-120812
    gose is no where near mike olt lol, olt is a above avergae hitter power, and bat speed wise. Gose is a 4th OF right now, dude hasn't hit for good average in the minors, what makes u think he will hit for good average in the majors? give us sanchez or noah + gose + jp and dickey is all yours if not, then u won't get him. the mets have already turned down gose and jp a few days ago from what I heard , step it up.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by I<3ourProspects View Post
    gose is no where near mike olt lol, olt is a above avergae hitter power, and bat speed wise. Gose is a 4th OF right now, dude hasn't hit for good average in the minors, what makes u think he will hit for good average in the majors? give us sanchez or noah + gose + jp and dickey is all yours if not, then u won't get him. the mets have already turned down gose and jp a few days ago from what I heard , step it up.
    Lol at that package. Keep him then, don't build for the future and then enjoy wasting dickey on two years of rebuilding. I'm sure with that team your a lock for the playoffs.


    Had to be done! Go T-Rex

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayOnBoard View Post
    Lol at that package. Keep him then, don't build for the future and then enjoy wasting dickey on two years of rebuilding. I'm sure with that team your a lock for the playoffs.
    dude no1 wants a 4th OF that cant even hit above 250, or a catcher that can't hit above 225, get real bro, this isnt junk for gold, gose and jp being the junk and RA being the gold, if u are not adding noah or sanchez this deal will never come clse to getting done thats for sure lol. no1 would trade a cy young, ace in dickey for those 2 scrubs.

    McCulloughSL Since 2010, 10 pitchers have thrown 600 IP with a sub-3.00 ERA: Kershaw, Weaver, Verlander, Lee, Doc, Felix, Price, Cain, Dickey, Hamels

    past 3 years dickey is up there with the elite, nuff said, u can talk about his age all u want hes a knuckleball pitchers thats 28 years old is reg. age, u can talk about the al east, in the last 3 years hes dominated the al east (small sample size) , u can keep syaing hes a fly ball pitcher but in fact hes a groundball pitcher go check for yourself.
    Last edited by I<3ourProspects; 12-10-2012 at 08:03 AM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by I<3ourProspects View Post
    dude no1 wants a 4th OF that cant even hit above 250, or a catcher that can't hit above 225, get real bro, this isnt junk for gold, gose and jp being the junk and RA being the gold, if u are not adding noah or sanchez this deal will never come clse to getting done thats for sure lol. no1 would trade a cy young, ace in dickey for those 2 scrubs.
    Its funny how you place value on his hitting and ignore the strong points of his game. Scrubs eh...go back to your forum before you hurt yourself.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by I<3ourProspects View Post
    dude no1 wants a 4th OF that cant even hit above 250, or a catcher that can't hit above 225, get real bro, this isnt junk for gold, gose and jp being the junk and RA being the gold, if u are not adding noah or sanchez this deal will never come clse to getting done thats for sure lol. no1 would trade a cy young, ace in dickey for those 2 scrubs.

    McCulloughSL Since 2010, 10 pitchers have thrown 600 IP with a sub-3.00 ERA: Kershaw, Weaver, Verlander, Lee, Doc, Felix, Price, Cain, Dickey, Hamels

    past 3 years dickey is up there with the elite, nuff said, u can talk about his age all u want hes a knuckleball pitchers thats 28 years old is reg. age, u can talk about the al east, in the last 3 years hes dominated the al east (small sample size) , u can keep syaing hes a fly ball pitcher but in fact hes a groundball pitcher go check for yourself.
    Gose is 22 years old and has been excellent for his age. He could be a real star in this league in the next 3 seasons.

    I also didn't know being a knuckleballer makes you 10 years younger, bro....

    Anthony Gose:
    Rated Fastest Baserunner in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Most Exciting Player in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Best Baserunner in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Most Exciting Player in the Florida State League in 2010
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the Florida State League in 2010
    Rated Fastest Baserunner in the Florida State League in 2010
    Rated Fastest Baserunner in the Eastern League in 2011
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the Eastern League in 2011
    Rated Most Exciting Player in the Eastern League in 2011
    Rated Best Baserunner in the Pacific Coast League in 2012
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the Pacific Coast League in 2012

    In short - you have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, feel free to keep Dickey and his "28 year old body" who will retire at age 31, while the Mets are still in last place trying to figure out why they can't get enough prospects to actually put a legit team on the field.

    Just like you guys did with Scott Hairston and Jose Reyes.... it obviously worked out so well with all those great players you acquired while they were playing out the last year of their contract

    P.S We'll enjoy Reyes! kkthxbai


    Had to be done! Go T-Rex

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Its funny how you place value on his hitting and ignore the strong points of his game. Scrubs eh...go back to your forum before you hurt yourself.
    hes fast, and with that speed hes a great defensive CF, what else does he bring to the table? and JP is only power nothing else, what else does he bring? With dickey your getting a 5-Tool pitcher, good era, eats up 200+ innings, low whip, good so's, QS easily 4 out of 5. I think hes worth more than 1 tool players like gose and JP , they would not be the primary piece we would be looking for, it would be a top 50 prospect like sanchez or noah with them added. Olt is > than jp and gose alone, and we declined that from the rangers.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayOnBoard View Post
    Gose is 22 years old and has been excellent for his age. He could be a real star in this league in the next 3 seasons.

    I also didn't know being a knuckleballer makes you 10 years younger, bro....

    Anthony Gose:
    Rated Fastest Baserunner in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Most Exciting Player in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Best Baserunner in the South Atlantic League in 2009
    Rated Most Exciting Player in the Florida State League in 2010
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the Florida State League in 2010
    Rated Fastest Baserunner in the Florida State League in 2010
    Rated Fastest Baserunner in the Eastern League in 2011
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the Eastern League in 2011
    Rated Most Exciting Player in the Eastern League in 2011
    Rated Best Baserunner in the Pacific Coast League in 2012
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the Pacific Coast League in 2012

    In short - you have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, feel free to keep Dickey and his "28 year old body" who will retire at age 31, while the Mets are still in last place trying to figure out why they can't get enough prospects to actually put a legit team on the field.

    Just like you guys did with Scott Hairston and Jose Reyes.... it obviously worked out so well with all those great players you acquired while they were playing out the last year of their contract

    P.S We'll enjoy Reyes! kkthxbai
    like I said all speed, and defense nothing else, dude won't be bale to use his speed often if he can't get his average above 250 in the bigs. hes never been a good hitter in the minors, look at his averages. If speed was the key to make u an elite prospect I'm sure billy hamilton wouldent be ranked outside the top 10, and that dude steals twice the bases gose does, and hits for a 300 average.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by I<3ourProspects View Post
    hes fast, and with that speed hes a great defensive CF, what else does he bring to the table? and JP is only power nothing else, what else does he bring? With dickey your getting a 5-Tool pitcher, good era, eats up 200+ innings, low whip, good so's, QS easily 4 out of 5. I think hes worth more than 1 tool players like gose and JP , they would not be the primary piece we would be looking for, it would be a top 50 prospect like sanchez or noah with them added. Olt is > than jp and gose alone, and we declined that from the rangers.
    A five tool pitcher? I mean, its obvious you have no clue about Goes but the fact that you just referred to a pitcher having 5 tools is too damn funny.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    A five tool pitcher? I mean, its obvious you have no clue about Goes but the fact that you just referred to a pitcher having 5 tools is too damn funny.
    I thought it was funny too I like to spice things up, how about this, he was almost the triple crown winner last year? that any better? and I know all about gose I've been following him for a 2 years now, and if u can't admit hes a below average hitter than I can see the homerism in u from a mile away.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by I<3ourProspects View Post
    I thought it was funny too I like to spice things up, how about this, he was almost the triple crown winner last year? that any better? and I know all about gose I've been following him for a 2 years now, and if u can't admit hes a below average hitter than I can see the homerism in u from a mile away.
    Yet you ignore his other tools? As in elite speed and defense yet you only focus on the bat because you're cherry picking. The guys a kid, he's not even done developing. Even if he's only an average MLB hitter, he'll still be a good center fielder and it would be ignorant to think otherwise.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Yet you ignore his other tools? As in elite speed and defense yet you only focus on the bat because you're cherry picking. The guys a kid, he's not even done developing. Even if he's only an average MLB hitter, he'll still be a good center fielder and it would be ignorant to think otherwise.
    Nah... I mean, if Ben ****ing Revere can net Worley and May, obviously Gose is completely useless.

    I mean, every 22 year old who comes up smashes the ball, right? Even though majority are still in AA ball....


    Had to be done! Go T-Rex

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    are u honestly comparing revere to gose? thats funny, revere hits for average, 300 average >>>> below 250 average in the bigs. In the minors hes been a career 300+ average hitter to goses 260 average that will and has translated to the bigs as being under 250 average. Revere can steal bases, and hes a great defender too.

    http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats...pbp&pid=519184

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