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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    ...please don't argue with me a year or two down the road that the Wilpons suddenly care about the Mets or winning.
    If they care only about money as you assert, they also care about winning because winning is the best way to make money. You contradict yourself.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    If they care only about money as you assert, they also care about winning because winning is the best way to make money. You contradict yourself.
    Not so much in this case.

    I don't believe the payments they get for being part of most people's basic cable package really vary substantially from year to year based on ratings. The lowest paid attendance they draw with all the corporate season ticket holders would seem to be around 2 million.

    The Wilpons have learned they can make out very respectably with a bad team if they keep payroll low enough.

    Think about it. With Citi Field's low capacity the most they could reasonably expect to draw would be about a million more fans than they do now. By keeping payroll around $80 million below big market standards they largely make up for this. Plus spending wouldn't absolutely guarantee winning or better attendance. They obviously don't think the risk is worth the reward.

    A million square foot mall and adjacent shopping strip is another story. They'll need to get people to actually come to the ballpark for it to go as well as they hope. To do this I predict they'll spend.
    Last edited by Coupon; 12-06-2012 at 08:32 PM.

  3. #78
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    The notion that they are making money, and yet had to consider selling a minority share to David Einhorn even after borrowing $25 million from MLB, is quite a stretch. It is clear that their finances and cash flow was suffering.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    The notion that they are making money, and yet had to consider selling a minority share to David Einhorn even after borrowing $25 million from MLB, is quite a stretch.
    The Wilpons were enmeshed in a historical collapse of the real estate market, and had just "lost" $500 million in stolen money they were using as leverage for the collapsing real estate. They were also preparing themselves for a punitive judgment in the Madoff case.

    They were hard up.

    The Mets and SNY as stand alone entities are another story. They generate excellent cash flow and their value keeps soaring.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    Think about it. With Citi Field's low capacity the most they could reasonably expect to draw would be about a million more fans than they do now. By keeping payroll around $80 million below big market standards they largely make up for this. Plus spending wouldn't absolutely guarantee winning or better attendance. They obviously don't think the risk is worth the reward.
    Um.. let us know when that starts happening. We'll be waiting.
    Sandy Alderson says Mets' 2014 payroll will be more than $87 million
    (11/19/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Alderson
    Payroll is $85 million this year. It was $85 million last year.
    (05/27/14)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Alderson
    I don't think we're that far away.
    (6 games under .500 before June. Not that far away from what?)

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    Um.. let us know when that starts happening. We'll be waiting.
    Not sure what you're asking. The biggest market teams these days have payrolls that range up to around $170 - $180 million - higher for the Yankees.

    The Wilpons keep payroll around half that number and stick the difference in their pockets.

    Are you disputing this?

  7. #82
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    Oddly, the monies they raised through the sale of minority shares reportedly went to pay down operating costs and debt due to negative cash flow.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    Oddly, the monies they raised through the sale of minority shares reportedly went to pay down operating costs and debt due to negative cash flow.
    Reportedly...

    Don't you find it odd that the Wilpons bought most of those shares themselves as individuals or through SNY?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    Reportedly...

    Don't you find it odd that the Wilpons bought most of those shares themselves as individuals or through SNY?
    I can't say because I have no insight into their personal finances or SNY's. What I do know is that the monies were reportedly used to pay $40 million to Bank of America and $25 million to MLB. The rest were to be used to pay operating expenses for the 2012 season. I noticed a lot of empty seats.

    All information in this case falls under the domain of "reportedly" unless you have direct access to financial statements.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    I can't say because I have no insight into their personal finances or SNY's. What I do know is that the monies were reportedly used to pay $40 million to Bank of America and $25 million to MLB. The rest were to be used to pay operating expenses for the 2012 season. I noticed a lot of empty seats.

    All information in this case falls under the domain of "reportedly" unless you have direct access to financial statements.
    The ability for them to cut big checks from their other Mets related corporate entity shows the money was there all along. For whatever reason, in advance of a Madoff settlement, they were holding it back from baseball operations.

    Any questions I might have had about their financial health were resolved by the Madoff settlement and by the explosion in value of the Mets and SNY in the wake of the Dodgers recent sale.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/met...-be-worth-1-5b

    Expert: Mets may be worth $1.5B
    March, 28, 2012
    Mar 28
    8:17
    PM ET
    By Adam Rubin | ESPNNewYork.com

    Fred Wilpon served on a committee that screened prospective Los Angeles Dodgers owners. So Wilpon said he could not discuss the yet-to-be-officially completed $2 billion sale of the West Coast ballclub.

    Still, when asked Wednesday afternoon about the impact of the Dodgers’ impending sale on the value of Major League Baseball franchises including his Mets, Wilpon said: “I’m smiling, aren’t I?”

    A week after Forbes valued the Mets at $719 million, sports business consultant Marc Ganis estimated Wednesday that the organization actually is worth more than double that amount in light of the Dodgers’ price tag...

    “If you had the Mets in the same situation as the Dodgers, in a bankruptcy situation where Wilpon would be able to sell the team to the highest bidder without too much interference from Major League Baseball, the Mets would have gone for the same number if not higher than the Dodgers.

    “If the Mets had the same (bankruptcy) thing, had they rejected the SNY contract and there could have been a fresh broadcasting deal, I suspect the Mets would have went for more than the $2 billion the Dodgers went for. If they kept the SNY deal, probably $1.5 billion or so would be the value.”




    I think the current austerity budget is a sham. The Mets could spend if they wanted. The Wilpons just borrowed another 9 figure sum against SNY. Why not? Its value keeps soaring.

    They're currently putting the savings from slashing payroll in their pocket.

    But you believe the Wilpons when they cry poverty. Which implies you don't think payroll will be going up anytime soon. How could it with all those empty seats? Which would make Jeff Wilpon a liar. Right?

  11. #86
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    I think they are recovering, and that payroll will recover incrementally - modestly - over time. Ultimately, winning and payroll go hand in hand. If Alderson fails to put a competitive product on the field, payroll will not rise dramatically.

    I think they value winning, but not at any price. They are more cautious than many fans would like, but not to a degree that makes it impossible to win. I believe they will become less cautious as winning % increases and closer to being a legitimate threat.

    I don't believe your conclusions are reasonable.
    Last edited by Dugmet; 12-07-2012 at 05:28 AM.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    I think they are recovering, and that payroll will recover incrementally - modestly - over time. Ultimately, winning and payroll go hand in hand. If Alderson fails to put a competitive product on the field, payroll will not rise dramatically.
    What do you think is stopping Fred and Saul from reinvesting the 9 figure dividends they keep taking from SNY back into the team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    I think they value winning, but not at any price.
    At what price, then, do you think they value winning?

    And what, then, do you think they value more than winning?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    They are more cautious than many fans would like, but not to a degree that makes it impossible to win. I believe they will become less cautious as winning % increases and closer to being a legitimate threat.
    To a degree that makes it impossible to win? Maybe not. To a degree that makes winning highly improbable? Yes.

    I believe they will become less cautious as the grand opening of the mall approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    I don't believe your conclusions are reasonable.
    They're based on previous spending patterns. What's past is prologue.

  13. #88
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    By opening day 2014 we will know which one of you are correct.

    I'm skeptical, but hopeful

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldmantrash View Post
    By opening day 2014 we will know which one of you are correct.

    I'm skeptical, but hopeful
    I think it'll take a bit longer to completely play out.

    Also, three years is a while. Other factors could come into play and things could change. Still, I'm pretty sure, as of now, the Wilpons don't feel it's worth spending much on the team until launch of the mall approaches.

    Then they'll spend enough for "meaningful baseball in September".

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    I think they are recovering, and that payroll will recover incrementally - modestly - over time. Ultimately, winning and payroll go hand in hand. If Alderson fails to put a competitive product on the field, payroll will not rise dramatically.

    I think they value winning, but not at any price. They are more cautious than many fans would like, but not to a degree that makes it impossible to win. I believe they will become less cautious as winning % increases and closer to being a legitimate threat.

    I don't believe your conclusions are reasonable.

    They became more cautious when the team was close actually. After '06 they did zip. At every deadline they do zip.

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