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  1. #46
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    Again stats say otherwise and am not a big Pagan fan and he has issues with his baseball IQ as we saw personally. The thing is that even with his mental game being bad, he plays good defense at a premium position and steals bases as well as hit for some pop while he hits for a decent average and walks at an average or slightly above average rate.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota48 View Post
    Same with the Dickster…and he was on a bigger scrap heap.
    This is true. But when the Pagster wins the outfielder's equivalent of a Cy Young, we'll talk.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    3-45 is more like it. Laughed my butt off at the reports he was willing to sign for 2/30 or even Ollie money at 3/36.

    The man just won a CY and even though he's 37, he's showing no signs of regressing anytime soon.

    He'll get 3/45 but not from the Mets which is a shame. That said, he probably just hurt his trade value.

    Boo hoo.
    CY or not, I think 3/$45 is steep for Dickey. He's 38 and will be 41 in the last year of that extension. The way he throws the knuckler, there is a lot of uncertainty about how well he will hold up. Granted, he's been nothing but great since he put his pen to a Mets contract 3 years ago, but it is hard to look 4 years into the future with much confidence.

    I'm surprised they are saying that the years are not the problem and it is just the $. If I were Sandy, I'd be offering him 2 years/$25 million with a 3rd year vesting option at $12.5 million and a $3 million buyout, with incentives for innings pitched and awards, like making the All Star Team, top 10 in CY voting, etc. so that he could earn as much as $15 million a year. That way the contract would actually be 2/$28.

    If major league GMs think like you do, he should not have hurt his trade value at all. They may be thinking "Oh wow, I can have a Cy Young Award winner for only $50 million over the next 4 years."
    Last edited by dunbummin; 12-05-2012 at 12:22 AM.
    Former B'klyn Dodger fan. Mets Maniac since 1962.

  4. #49
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    Bye R.A. The Mets won't pay 3/45 even if he won the Cy Young. He is going to be traded. Let's hope the Royals have a change of heart, lose their mind and trade Myers to us for him. Guaranteed they trade Dickey and get garbage in return.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER SEAVER View Post
    Bye R.A. The Mets won't pay 3/45 even if he won the Cy Young. He is going to be traded. Let's hope the Royals have a change of heart, lose their mind and trade Myers to us for him. Guaranteed they trade Dickey and get garbage in return.
    They just spent money on Wright, and are looking towards the future. If trading Dickey allows the Mets get younger with more diverse talent shouldn't you be for it.


    “Ninety percent I’ll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I’ll probably waste.”
    - Tug McGraw, on his plans for his $75,000 salary

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER SEAVER View Post
    Bye R.A. The Mets won't pay 3/45 even if he won the Cy Young. He is going to be traded. Let's hope the Royals have a change of heart, lose their mind and trade Myers to us for him. Guaranteed they trade Dickey and get garbage in return.
    Wait, didn't you say that about Wright, too?

    Good omen!
    Sandy Alderson says Mets' 2014 payroll will be more than $87 million
    (11/19/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Alderson
    Payroll is $85 million this year. It was $85 million last year.
    (05/27/14)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Alderson
    I don't think we're that far away.
    (6 games under .500 before June. Not that far away from what?)

  7. #52
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    We had a Cy Young winner and came in 4th place. Now we cannot afford to keep him.

    So if he would have lost 2-3 more games and he doesn't win the CY, Ollie money of 3/36 is reasonable for a 37 year old? Seems like the team would have been better off if he didn't win the CY.

    Dickey wants $45 million for three years. There is a good chance, a real good chance, that he won't even win 45 games during that time. Seems a bit expensive to me.

    In many ways $$$$ has ruined the game of baseball.

    To borrow from Branch Rickey…We came in fourth with him, we can come in fourth without him.

    To us, talking about $45 million is nothing more than a few keystrokes on a keyboard. In reality it is an incredible amount of $$$$. And it is a sports contract which, once signed, is a huge risk for the owner and zero risk for the player.

    3/45 is way too much for the situation this team is in and way too much for a 37 year old. If that's what it will take, trade him.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota48 View Post
    We had a Cy Young winner and came in 4th place. Now we cannot afford to keep him.

    So if he would have lost 2-3 more games and he doesn't win the CY, Ollie money of 3/36 is reasonable for a 37 year old? Seems like the team would have been better off if he didn't win the CY.

    Dickey wants $45 million for three years. There is a good chance, a real good chance, that he won't even win 45 games during that time. Seems a bit expensive to me.

    In many ways $$$$ has ruined the game of baseball.

    To borrow from Branch Rickey…We came in fourth with him, we can come in fourth without him.

    To us, talking about $45 million is nothing more than a few keystrokes on a keyboard. In reality it is an incredible amount of $$$$. And it is a sports contract which, once signed, is a huge risk for the owner and zero risk for the player.

    3/45 is way too much for the situation this team is in and way too much for a 37 year old. If that's what it will take, trade him.
    Branch Rickey's reasoning was arrogant and flawed. Arrogant because he knew Ralph Kiner had no bargaining leverage and that he could trade him for whatever he could get. Flawed because the team's poor play was more indicative of Kiner's 24 teammates than Kiner.

    But you knew that.

    The mistake many people make when citing Dickey' age is the assumption that he's no different from any other major league veteran pitcher of a similar age. But those guys have logged about a decade and a half of major league pitching stress. Dickey on the other hand has pitched relatively few major league innings for someone his age. Then of course there's the knuckleball.

    I understand not wanting to pay $45 million when the rest of the team has so many holes. But in an ideal situation, you load up on pitching as you fill the other holes. That's how championship teams are built.

    It will be a shame two years from now when this team is ready to turn the corner that Dickey won't be around to help put them over the top. I concede I'll feel differently if they trade Dickey to bring in players who help them turn the corner.

    But i remain skeptical.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 12-05-2012 at 09:38 AM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  9. #54
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    Lets assume for a moment you can extend Dickey for 3/$39M. That leaves the difference from Niese over the next 4 years about $20M. To justify that difference, figure Dickey has to put up an ERA or RA9 about 0.45 lower than Niese for that time. If you can keep one or the other (say you have to trade one), which do you keep?

    Including any increased risk of injury and declinng performance due to Dickey's age, is it a good bet or bad bet that he'll be able to throw as many innings as Niese at a rate about 0.45 runs per 9 better than Niese?
    Last edited by acerimusdux; 12-05-2012 at 10:34 AM.

  10. #55
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    There is no way the Mets trade Niese after locking him up to that team-friendly extension. They took a gamble, and so far it looks like its paying off big time.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Lets assume for a moment you can extend Dickey for 3/$39M. That leaves the difference from Niece over the next 4 years about $20M. To justify that difference, figure Dickey has to put up an ERA or RA9 about 0.45 lower than Niese for that time. If you can keep one or the other (say you have to trade one), which do you keep?

    Including any increased risk of injury and declinng performance due to Dickey's age, is it a good bet or bad bet that he'll be able to throw as many innings as Niese at a rate about 0.45 runs per 9 better than Niese?
    Which pitcher is more likely to require a Tommy John surgery?
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Which pitcher is more likely to require a Tommy John surgery?
    Which pitcher is more likely to sustain any injury?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Lets assume for a moment you can extend Dickey for 3/$39M. That leaves the difference from Niese over the next 4 years about $20M. To justify that difference, figure Dickey has to put up an ERA or RA9 about 0.45 lower than Niese for that time. If you can keep one or the other (say you have to trade one), which do you keep?

    Including any increased risk of injury and declinng performance due to Dickey's age, is it a good bet or bad bet that he'll be able to throw as many innings as Niese at a rate about 0.45 runs per 9 better than Niese?
    If the pitcher we saw in 2012 is Niese moving forward, and Dickey regresses to pre-2012 levels, then Niese is the more valuable player for sure.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota48 View Post
    Dickey wants $45 million for three years. There is a good chance, a real good chance, that he won't even win 45 games during that time. Seems a bit expensive to me.
    I thought Wins were not a valid means to measure a pitcher's value and performance, correct?
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    Which pitcher is more likely to sustain any injury?
    Arm injury? Niese.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

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