2012-2013 Off-season thread part II

[Lackeyfan41]

To Texas:
Jacoby Ellsbury
Clay Buchholz (Texas native, warm weather, no back issues)
Jarrod Saltalamacchia (Geovany Soto really doesn't cut it)
Bryce Brentz (possible replacement for Cruz Jr if he elects free agency after the '13 season)
Alfredo Aceves

To Beantown:
Elvis Andrus
Derek Holland
David Murphy (left handed platoon bat w/ Gomes)

Red Sox sign Josh Hamilton.

I would like a deal along these lines. Even though it looks like an overpayment from Boston's side, Salty and Aceves are really just spare parts.

Why does everyone like Andrus so much? I see him as just a top 10 shortstop, barley, who puts up average leadoff numbers, and will be a FA after 2 years. On top of that he will demand a contract he is not worth, that the red sox will feel they need to give him to "stop" the revolving door at short.

Iglesias sucks, but I would take Iglesias over giving up Ells to get Andrus.

[AuSox]

To Texas:
Jacoby Ellsbury
Clay Buchholz (Texas native, warm weather, no back issues)
Jarrod Saltalamacchia (Geovany Soto really doesn't cut it)
Bryce Brentz (possible replacement for Cruz Jr if he elects free agency after the '13 season)
Alfredo Aceves

To Beantown:
Elvis Andrus
Derek Holland
David Murphy (left handed platoon bat w/ Gomes)

Red Sox sign Josh Hamilton.

I would like a deal along these lines. Even though it looks like an overpayment from Boston's side, Salty and Aceves are really just spare parts.

The problem is that Texas flat out are not trading Andrus. If they weren't willing to move him for Upton then there is nothing we have that would make them trade him now. I think its time to move on from this idea, maybe next offseason they will change their minds, but right now he is untouchable.

[Nomar]

I'd love to trade for Trevor Story. He looks like a monster hitter for a SS and he profiles well there defensively.

[Bo Sox Fan]

The problem is that Texas flat out are not trading Andrus. If they weren't willing to move him for Upton then there is nothing we have that would make them trade him now. I think its time to move on from this idea, maybe next offseason they will change their minds, but right now he is untouchable.

Don't believe everything you here from sports writers during the baseball offseason. Just 2 days ago the Dodgers were 'said' to have dropped out of the Grienke sweepstakes, than look where he signed...

For all we really know, Texas might be more and more willing to deal Andrus now than before with SP and OF options dwindling daily.

[Celtic AL]

Don't believe everything you here from sports writers during the baseball offseason. Just 2 days ago the Dodgers were 'said' to have dropped out of the Grienke sweepstakes, than look where he signed...

For all we really know, Texas might be more and more willing to deal Andrus now than before with SP and OF options dwindling daily.

no there not. if they did want to move andrus then they would have gotten upton.

[Lackeyfan41]

Don't believe everything you here from sports writers during the baseball offseason. Just 2 days ago the Dodgers were 'said' to have dropped out of the Grienke sweepstakes, than look where he signed...

For all we really know, Texas might be more and more willing to deal Andrus now than before with SP and OF options dwindling daily.

And they would not have moved young.

[bagwell368]

Rays and Royals close on a major trade. I predict its either price or shields. Seriously what is Ben doing and people wonder why im hard on him. He is acting like a rookie,plus he really doesn't have that much power anyways. Lucchino is the real GM.

This team is going to be a 87-89 win team. I have already come to terms with that so after we lose a game, i wouldn't be emotionally upset.

BC is doing fine. I have the Sox currently at 83 wins, perfectly fine after last year.

Most of the last 7 hours worth of posts here are among the most reactive and over the top I have seen here in my almost 6 years here.

TB got a good deal in part because they had to move salary and have more pitching than almost anybody. A big LOL for anybody that thinks Myers will win an MVP or hit 40 HR's (in MLB) in 2013 - and have never actually seen the guy play - just followed the lemmings.

[bagwell368]

And they would not have moved young.

Young is no option whatever at 1B/2B/SS/3B (-12 runs in defense in 83 games in the field at age 35) and a meager 78 OPS+ (below replacement level). The move was to get an extra $8M to help sign a FA.

[bagwell368]

Iglesias sucks, but I would take Iglesias over giving up Ells to get Andrus.

Can't see how you came to that conclusion.

The last two years as a 22 and 23 year old Andrus was a 4.0 and 3.5 rWAR player (Ellsbury wasn't even in the Majors yet at those ages).

In 2010 and 2012 Ellsbury was a -0.2 and a 0.8 and that's in his supposed physical prime. Outside of his massive 2011, his next best two years of rWAR is 2.7 and 2.5.

Andrus w/ 2 years of control > Ellsbury at 1 year of control

Clearly.

[AuSox]

BC is doing fine. I have the Sox currently at 83 wins, perfectly fine after last year.

Most of the last 7 hours worth of posts here are among the most reactive and over the top I have seen here in my almost 6 years here.

TB got a good deal in part because they had to move salary and have more pitching than almost anybody. A big LOL for anybody that thinks Myers will win an MVP or hit 40 HR's (in MLB) in 2013 - and have never actually seen the guy play - just followed the lemmings.

I don't think anybody seriously thinks that Myers will be an MVP candidate or hit 40 homers next season, but this trade (and the one a lot of us hoped the Sox would have made) isn't about next season, its about the long term best interests of the team. Myers has the talent and potential to both hit 40 hrs a season in his prime and contend for MVP titles. He could be the next Ryan Braun. Now obviously he is still a prospect so there are still risks involved and he could bust, but the track record in recent years of prospects with similar pedigree, ranking and elite performance in high levels of the minors is very good. The Sox haven't had a prospect as good as Myers in the last 10 years and if they genuinely had a shot at him and didn't take it, then I think its a big mistake.

While I don't think BC is doing a bad job, I would like to see the Organization fully commit to an approach. Either try and win now or sell off the assets that you don't think will be a part of this team when it seriously contends again. I would love the Victorino and Napoli signings if it came along with trades of Lester and Ellsbury for young talent because I would see it as a clear bridge for the future. Instead they make these moves that don't quite make the team good enough to contend but still have assets that are almost wasted. Of course they may be hoping that Ells and Lester both bounce back and increase their value before the deadline but that is quite risky as well because we may get almost nothing out of them if they don't rebound. Or we could see them sign Hamilton and Anibal Sanchez and go all out this year, either way I would prefer to see full commitment rather than trying to play the middle and end up nowhere.

The thing I liked most about the John Farrell hiring wasn't that they brought Farrell back, its that they knew who they wanted and they went out and got him. They were very clear with their intentions and didn't waste time like last season with the Bobby V debacle. Now I would like to see them continue the same approach with the rest of the offseason.

[SoxFan0407]

With the Dodgers signing Greinke does anyone think we could pry Kershaw away from them with a deal centered around Ellsbury/Salty/prospects? They've shown no regard for signing/taking high profile (high salary) guys. I think they'd be more than willing to deal for Ellsbury and Salty with a couple prospects especially since Crawford is going to be a question mark for the first part of the season yet again. With Crawford in the fold they probably wouldn't shy away from Ellsbury as a rental for a year if it came down to that. If not Kershaw could we get one of their other SP's? Billingsly? Capuano? Harang? For less of a price of course...

[AuSox]

With the Dodgers signing Greinke does anyone think we could pry Kershaw away from them with a deal centered around Ellsbury/Salty/prospects? They've shown no regard for signing/taking high profile (high salary) guys. I think they'd be more than willing to deal for Ellsbury and Salty with a couple prospects especially since Crawford is going to be a question mark for the first part of the season yet again. With Crawford in the fold they probably wouldn't shy away from Ellsbury as a rental for a year if it came down to that. If not Kershaw could we get one of their other SP's? Billingsly? Capuano? Harang? For less of a price of course...

I think with the money the Dodgers have they will make Kershaw a Dodger for life and possibly the highest paid pitcher in baseball history. I don't think there is any chance the Sox can get him, especially now. I also don't think they would have any interest in Ellsbury. They have a full outfield with Crawford, Kemp and Ethier so they have no room for Ells. Some of their other starters will likely become available, but probably the lower end guys like Capuano. I think with teams getting smarter in extending or trading their top players before their contracts end and greatly diminishing the quality of free agents available, teams have to rely more on developing their own top talent, especially pitching.

[bagwell368]

I don't think anybody seriously thinks that Myers will be an MVP candidate or hit 40 homers next season, but this trade (and the one a lot of us hoped the Sox would have made) isn't about next season, its about the long term best interests of the team. Myers has the talent and potential to both hit 40 hrs a season in his prime and contend for MVP titles.

I'm not disputing he might do those things. I am making light of the folks who have written with so much passion about Myers - with some of them never having seen him - and the assumption that he's going to be some cosmic stud w/ NO chance of failure or even being an average player.

He could be the next Ryan Braun. Now obviously he is still a prospect so there are still risks involved and he could bust, but the track record in recent years of prospects with similar pedigree, ranking and elite performance in high levels of the minors is very good.

"could" the magic word. Chances are far more he never wins an MVP. I published the list of prospect with his pedigree and while on average it was quite good, there were as many washouts as great players. If he is such a frigg'n can't miss stud, why was KC interested in dealing him for a pitcher coming off a meh year+ with only two years of control left on his deal - the 2nd year quite pricey at that?

The Sox haven't had a prospect as good as Myers in the last 10 years and if they genuinely had a shot at him and didn't take it, then I think its a big mistake.

I call bull on that. I'd wager money 1 to 1 odds, that Myers does not match either Jon Lester or Hanley Ramirez's first six years in the Majors per rWAR.

While I don't think BC is doing a bad job, I would like to see the Organization fully commit to an approach. Either try and win now or sell off the assets that you don't think will be a part of this team when it seriously contends again. I would love the Victorino and Napoli signings if it came along with trades of Lester and Ellsbury for young talent because I would see it as a clear bridge for the future.

Firstly the off season is far from over. The approach is clear, back fill some holes with FA's on short contracts, do not trade the key players on the farm. We should see some deals including guys like Salty, Ells, a RP or 3, etc. but those deals won't bring a lot at this point (Ells's value is not elite at this time). This is the approach I asked and hoped for at the end of the season, and so far that's what BC is doing. If we trade for any serious players I want proven ML level players such as Andrus or Alex Gordon, not shots in the dark for unproven specs. BTW, if Myers was such a can't miss spec why didn't he get a September call-up?

Instead they make these moves that don't quite make the team good enough to contend but still have assets that are almost wasted. Of course they may be hoping that Ells and Lester both bounce back and increase their value before the deadline but that is quite risky as well because we may get almost nothing out of them if they don't rebound. Or we could see them sign Hamilton and Anibal Sanchez and go all out this year, either way I would prefer to see full commitment rather than trying to play the middle and end up nowhere.

Sanchez's price tag will be ridiculous, no thanks. Trading this year includes in-season trades. Ells, Lester, Bucchholz and others could go in a wholesale dump of what we have in favor of the future. I'm all in favor of that. RSN could at least buy an attempt to see if 2013 can be salvaged. They can also buy if we suck that it's time to burn the rest of it down. But they may not buy the whole sale wipeout of the team now, and we might be getting less for those guys now than later - we got a boat load for Gonzalez after all mid season.

The thing I liked most about the John Farrell hiring wasn't that they brought Farrell back, its that they knew who they wanted and they went out and got him. They were very clear with their intentions and didn't waste time like last season with the Bobby V debacle. Now I would like to see them continue the same approach with the rest of the offseason.

Plans are great, but to execute plans when the conditions are not favorable - such as Napoleon at Waterloo proves that hubris and macho **** headedness is not a reason to continue on a plan that cannot be executed successfully, or cost too much in doing so. Please read up on Scipio sometime to see the virtue of patience.

[Nomar]

As much as id like to see Myers bust now, from what I've seen the kid is really talented. His swing isn't the most beautiful and he strikes out a lot, but i dont think either will hurt him too much. I don't see him having 40 HR power, but 35 HRs is realistic for him. Of course not in his rookie year though.

Odorizzi is supposed to be pretty good but the Royals have had trouble coming up with solid pitchers from the farm lately.

[MoVaughnsLunch]

Just ask the angels how all that spending went? Lad can buy whoever they want but it doesn't make them a team. Giants and dbacks will finish above then