Dumars biggest mistake:Signed/Drafted too many players withno defined position in NBA

[Riedle9]

I remember there was a time when Joe Dumars emphasized "versatility" from the players.

Then he drafted Stuckey as a start.I think Stuckey is neither a pg nor a sg. He cant shoot well and stretch the floor as a SG, n cant playmake as a pg. He is a career 6th man imo;

Then he signed CV and Ben Gordon. Ben Gordon is too undersized to play as a SG in NBA; CV is a 6'11" shootinh guard with no post game n defense;

Then we have players like Daye n Jerebko. After so many seasons, i still cant figure out what Jerebko natural position is??? A Pf or a SF? Daye too, is he a SF or a PF?

Dumars seems to realize the problem now and drafted Drummond(C), English(SG) n Singler(SF), he also signed Kravtsov.

All these players have defined positions. So, it may take a few more seasons to clear up this mess

[GuySir]

Then we have players like Daye n Jerebko. After so many seasons, i still cant figure out what Jerebko natural position is??? A Pf or a SF? Daye too, is he a SF or a PF?

The saddest part about Daye is we're sitting here thinking if he can play the 3 or 4, and he's thinking he's a 2 guard

[Riedle9]

pg) Knight(shoot-first pg), Bynum(sg with pg size)

sg) English(SG), Stuckey(neither SG nor PG), Middleton(Jason Richardson type swingman, SG/SF)

SF) Prince(SF), Singler(SF, but has to play SG becoz Stuckey sucks), Daye(cant guard explosive, strong SFs; too weak to play at PF)

PF) Maxiell(PF with SG size), Jerebko(too weak to protect the rim, no post game/post D), CV (SG with PF size, no post game/ post D)

C) Monroe (Tim duncan lite, PF/C), Drummond (C), Kravtsov (C)


So in the entire roster, players with definedd positions are English(SG), Middleton(swingman), Prince, Singler, Maxiell, Monroe, Drummond n Kravtsov

[GuySir]

Man, you're seriously on to something, it never occurred to me how many guys we've acquired that have no true position.

[Riedle9]

Somehow, i need to rfind the right pieces. but cant have a team of combo guards and tweners.

Now, i wonder how Jerebko, CV n Daye can protect the rim as PFs; why is Stuckey a SG when he cant hit a shot beyond 15ft?

All our "Point guards" are shoot-first pgs. we need true PGs n PFs for sure

[Spiggity_ace]

this is a great thread, ur right in many aspects.

[LionsFan..LOL]

The saddest part about Daye is we're sitting here thinking if he can play the 3 or 4, and he's thinking he's a 2 guard

And he can't do any of it

[markbutter]

I remember there was a time when Joe Dumars emphasized "versatility" from the players.

Then he drafted Stuckey as a start.I think Stuckey is neither a pg nor a sg. He cant shoot well and stretch the floor as a SG, n cant playmake as a pg. He is a career 6th man imo;

Then he signed CV and Ben Gordon. Ben Gordon is too undersized to play as a SG in NBA; CV is a 6'11" shootinh guard with no post game n defense;

Then we have players like Daye n Jerebko. After so many seasons, i still cant figure out what Jerebko natural position is??? A Pf or a SF? Daye too, is he a SF or a PF?

Dumars seems to realize the problem now and drafted Drummond(C), English(SG) n Singler(SF), he also signed Kravtsov.

All these players have defined positions. So, it may take a few more seasons to clear up this mess

I agree with the basic premise of your post. I think you need to have a solid 5 starters with defined positions and talent and a couple of guys off the bench in the same mold.

I think the versatility goes from that point to the end of the bench. For example, every team in the NBA has people who are perhaps mismatched. Durant - a shooter? yes. But at 6'10" or 6'11" ?? Holy crap. You're going to need someone who's alot bigger than your normal 6'5 - 6'7 shooting guard.

or take a look at the Heat. Bron at PF with Bosh at C. Your "normal" PF is not going to be able to guard Bron (but, who could). So you will need to have "versatile" athletes on your team.

I think our biggest problems have been:

McCurry, Kuester and now Frank. We've had 3 coaches in 4 years, one year being the lockout last year. Each coach will typically bring in their own assistants and new schemes.

The sale. It was impossible to make any trades or have a long term plan in place. You had to make it a attractive as possible, which meant not signing anyone except the superstars, to long-term contracts. That's not anyone's fault. That's just business.

Making a commitment. We've tried to reload on the run with the trade of Billups and BG/CV signings. Once that wasn't going to work out and we were past the "sale" we should have played the youngsters more, specifically this year. I think you can draw more people, or perhaps not lose as many, if you're losing but fans see you're looking towards the future. You can get away with, maybe a year or two, of young players playing and growing, even if they are losing, making mistakes but learning. It's only after 2 or so years that if there's no improvement from the youngsters can you say, well, he wasn't meant to be.

A perfect example are Luck & RG3. These guys are exciting, playing and making mistakes. They might not make the playoffs this year, but fans can see there is a plan for the future. Our future is 1 1/2 to 2 years down the road, at a minimum. As long as these guys are playing, trying and even making errors, I guarantee you that season ticket sales for next season will be higher than this season for the Colts & 'Skins.

[2_Trill]

I still say we should if kept Flynn and cut our losses with bynumite. When will is running the point he only creates offense for hiself instead of his teammates, Joe dumars has bigger problems then will running point that he better clean up if he plans to keep his job.

[markbutter]

I still say we should if kept Flynn and cut our losses with bynumite. When will is running the point he only creates offense for hiself instead of his teammates, Joe dumars has bigger problems then will running point that he better clean up if he plans to keep his job.

Well, I understand that Flynn had some injury problems, but it wasn't like he was killing it when he was healthy and a top 10 pick.

Second, odds are, flynn wouldn't have been staying around past this year, so why pay him and Bynum.

Third, last time I checked, Flynn hadn't been picked up by anyone. I'm not sure keeping him would have made us any better, but would have caused us to go over the cap and not get any distribution from cap taxes at the end of the year. Therefore, his "salary" would have been even higher if opportunity type costs are factored in.

[kduce]

I basically agree that you need players with defined positions.. at least as far as your starting 5 and your backup center. The 5 because, they are your starters, and the center because you need to have a defensive anchor and shot blocker on the floor to keep things in check at all times.

The rest of the team can be as versatile and undefined as they want to be. Austin Daye doesn't suck because he doesn't have a defined position... he sucks because he can't shoot the ball. Charlie V sucks because he can't play defense not because of his lack of a clear position. Jerebko I'll give you, I think they need to figure out what his natural position is so he can focus on practicing the skills he needs for his role.

Overall though, Kevin Love is a PF who can shoot 3s, but can also rebound he can stretch the floor and be effective. I know there are a few PFs who can do this, but my point is that we don't need guys to fit molds into certain positions to be successful. The guys coming off of our bench have to do certain things... some are 3 point shooters, others are defensive forces, or if you need to get to the line you bring in those kinds of players. On my bench if they can do what I need them to do then I don't care what they're natural position is. This is why those guys are called roll players, because they play a specific roll that we need.

For the most part starters are starters because they play well and are capable of playing a specific position very well. I know there are some exceptions to the rule ie Lebron, Durant, etc... but you get my drift. Just my opinion though, I dig this thread for the simple fact that it is breeding insightful conversation and posts worth reading. I'll take that over people fighting back and fourth the entire thread any day.

[JMDTM]

I remember there was a time when Joe Dumars emphasized "versatility" from the players.

Then he drafted Stuckey as a start.I think Stuckey is neither a pg nor a sg. He cant shoot well and stretch the floor as a SG, n cant playmake as a pg. He is a career 6th man imo;

Then he signed CV and Ben Gordon. Ben Gordon is too undersized to play as a SG in NBA; CV is a 6'11" shootinh guard with no post game n defense;

Then we have players like Daye n Jerebko. After so many seasons, i still cant figure out what Jerebko natural position is??? A Pf or a SF? Daye too, is he a SF or a PF?

Dumars seems to realize the problem now and drafted Drummond(C), English(SG) n Singler(SF), he also signed Kravtsov.

All these players have defined positions. So, it may take a few more seasons to clear up this mess

i was sayin this earlier today man. haha. Maxiell whenever he came about, he is another one. Why couldn't he be like 6'10 at least.

[GuySir]

i was sayin this earlier today man. haha. Maxiell whenever he came about, he is another one. Why couldn't he be like 6'10 at least.

Seriously if Max was 6'10 he'd be such a beast.

[Gram]

Gram George is 6-10...? I dunno.

[markbutter]

I basically agree that you need players with defined positions.. at least as far as your starting 5 and your backup center. The 5 because, they are your starters, and the center because you need to have a defensive anchor and shot blocker on the floor to keep things in check at all times.

The rest of the team can be as versatile and undefined as they want to be. Austin Daye doesn't suck because he doesn't have a defined position... he sucks because he can't shoot the ball. Charlie V sucks because he can't play defense not because of his lack of a clear position. Jerebko I'll give you, I think they need to figure out what his natural position is so he can focus on practicing the skills he needs for his role.

Overall though, Kevin Love is a PF who can shoot 3s, but can also rebound he can stretch the floor and be effective. I know there are a few PFs who can do this, but my point is that we don't need guys to fit molds into certain positions to be successful. The guys coming off of our bench have to do certain things... some are 3 point shooters, others are defensive forces, or if you need to get to the line you bring in those kinds of players. On my bench if they can do what I need them to do then I don't care what they're natural position is. This is why those guys are called roll players, because they play a specific roll that we need.

For the most part starters are starters because they play well and are capable of playing a specific position very well. I know there are some exceptions to the rule ie Lebron, Durant, etc... but you get my drift. Just my opinion though, I dig this thread for the simple fact that it is breeding insightful conversation and posts worth reading. I'll take that over people fighting back and fourth the entire thread any day.

Well put. . .better than I did.