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  1. #61
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    I posted this in the last GT, but it fits here as well...

    Bargs own faults aside, you don't think that this franchise ****ed up his long-term development by making him something he wasn't? We had Bosh as a fixture at the 4, so we told Bargs to develop a ton of muscle/weight in order to play the 5 (which completely went against his skill-set).

    The next year we traded for JO and told Bargs to slim back down in order to play the 3, another epic fail. It wasn't until his 5th year and Bosh's departure that we slotted him at his natural 4 spot, but by then his development had already been stunted.

    In hindsight, the only pick that would/should have made sense in '06 was Rudy Gay (and he went 8th).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakazoid View Post
    Bryan should be faulted here. As I've pointed out many times, playmaking is non-existent from the wing position. Bryan did not create a team that would be successful within a motion scheme despite being made aware from his coach that this is what he had in mind. I'm assuming that he thought that Landry was going to fulfil this role for Toronto but other than that playmaking is predominating coming from the PG position.
    Agree, besides the non existent production from SF, add Derozan is not a creator/facilitator & Lowry looks like an undersized 2 guard playing point.

    Poor play making, decisions from the wing & point, is why I assume besides the the compensation for poor play at SF, Casey had Calderon (a poor option defensively) on ball & Lowry off ball using the 2 PG lineup to close out games.

    I'm hopeful, Lowry's current play is attributed to injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freakazoid View Post
    Even then, I don't understand why it's the fault of the motion offense. Outside of that 13 game outlier, Andrea has never been a steady contributor. I think this is mostly because of his lack of conditioning.
    Agree on his lack of conditioning,

    You explained above in part why it's the fault of the motion offence, there's no motion, poor chemistry in that starting unit. For this reason I was open to the idea of bringing Bargnani off the bench if they consider Lowry the better option offensively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freakazoid View Post
    He never actually said this. I didn't miss a pre- or a post- game interview last season.

    From day 1, he said that he wanted to instil a motion offense but not until the Raptors learned how to play defence. And although he said that he would try to give Andrea the same looks as Dirk, they didn't really work on offense at all because their defence was terrible. They just happened to give the ball a lot to Andrea because he already had an established role from the previous season as the number one option.

    Even if our offensive scheme changed from accommodating Andrea to accommodating Lowry, historically, Andrea has never been consistent. It's a bit simplistic to simply pin this entirely on Casey.
    Though you're right to say Bargnani has been historically inconsistent, last year prior to injury he showed his best stretch of basketball, derailed only by injury. This left question marks to close out the season.

    Now to start the season, restructuring the offence & everything explained above has attributed to his overall regression.

  3. #63
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    I know it was a long time ago. But c'mon, Andrea could never and never would of been able to play the 3.

  4. #64
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    There has been a lot of mistakes by Casey this year.........I'm open to a line-up change......they current guys can't exist together cohesively .........Demar is so one dimensional , he almost never makes the right pass.......even though his stats have improved, he's drawling doubles like crazy when he drives, Jonas is open all day under the hoop and never gets the little lob thrown to him..., demar will shoot through triple teams as well.....and what scares me most is 4th quarter, when demar gets the ball, i cringe knowing it's going to be a forced shot, and thats why the refs don't give him the call every time, because he looks out of controll.....Lowery has been inconsistent since returning from injury.......you never know what he's going to do.....take a bad shot (early three with no one in for rebound).....he may be trying to confuse the other team.....he's confusing our team as well.........I'm lobbying for Jose to return to starting line-up, he was giving us double doubles, without lowery.......we need a more consistent start.....barg will be more comfortable with him as well, who needs to get going.........Then use Lowery as a super sub, with the bench........when you think about everything , this is an easy call........and for god sake get get Jonas the ball more, he's our best Fg% guy and will only improve with more touches........come on CASEY!
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stone View Post
    There has been a lot of mistakes by Casey this year.........I'm open to a line-up change......they current guys can't exist together cohesively .........Demar is so one dimensional , he almost never makes the right pass.......even though his stats have improved, he's drawling doubles like crazy when he drives, Jonas is open all day under the hoop and never gets the little lob thrown to him..., demar will shoot through triple teams as well.....and what scares me most is 4th quarter, when demar gets the ball, i cringe knowing it's going to be a forced shot, and thats why the refs don't give him the call every time, because he looks out of controll.....Lowery has been inconsistent since returning from injury.......you never know what he's going to do.....take a bad shot (early three with no one in for rebound).....he may be trying to confuse the other team.....he's confusing our team as well.........I'm lobbying for Jose to return to starting line-up, he was giving us double doubles, without lowery.......we need a more consistent start.....barg will be more comfortable with him as well, who needs to get going.........Then use Lowery as a super sub, with the bench........when you think about everything , this is an easy call........and for god sake get get Jonas the ball more, he's our best Fg% guy and will only improve with more touches........come on CASEY!
    Putting..... after.......every couple.....words......doesn't make you look smarter...... it's just......annoying.....Seems.....like....you want all the non-black players to play more and all the black guys to sit on the bench.
    Oh BTW Derozan & Lowry, Ed Davis & Jonas have been the only bright spots so far this year. ALso getting rid of Mcguire.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stone View Post
    There has been a lot of mistakes by Casey this year.........I'm open to a line-up change......they current guys can't exist together cohesively .........Demar is so one dimensional , he almost never makes the right pass.......even though his stats have improved, he's drawling doubles like crazy when he drives, Jonas is open all day under the hoop and never gets the little lob thrown to him..., demar will shoot through triple teams as well.....and what scares me most is 4th quarter, when demar gets the ball, i cringe knowing it's going to be a forced shot, and thats why the refs don't give him the call every time, because he looks out of controll.....Lowery has been inconsistent since returning from injury.......you never know what he's going to do.....take a bad shot (early three with no one in for rebound).....he may be trying to confuse the other team.....he's confusing our team as well.........I'm lobbying for Jose to return to starting line-up, he was giving us double doubles, without lowery.......we need a more consistent start.....barg will be more comfortable with him as well, who needs to get going.........Then use Lowery as a super sub, with the bench........when you think about everything , this is an easy call........and for god sake get get Jonas the ball more, he's our best Fg% guy and will only improve with more touches........come on CASEY!
    You don't watch games do you. Everyone knows one of the things Demar has improved on is his passing out of the double team and his decision making.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by BALLER R View Post
    You don't watch games do you. Everyone knows one of the things Demar has improved on is his passing out of the double team and his decision making.
    Exactly why I didn't give him a serious response, seems like he just put together a bunch of old conversations he found on here and put them together.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise 1 View Post
    I know it was a long time ago. But c'mon, Andrea could never and never would of been able to play the 3.
    i think he could have. he would get exploited by explosive 3's but there are slower players at every position that still manage to excel based on other attributes. his length would have been a huge advantage at both ends.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BALLER R View Post
    You don't watch games do you. Everyone knows one of the things Demar has improved on is his passing out of the double team and his decision making.
    You gotta take "improved" with a grain of salt.

    I like what I've seen from Demar this year but he's still largely an isolation player. He averages over 15 fg/game and still under 2 assists. Passing out of a double team isn't really a huge plus if it's just NOT turning the ball over, getting better at passing out of a double team is creating opportunity. He doesn't see the open man or look for cutters/rollers/shooters, he goes at the rim until he can't go any more and if there's no opportunity to shoot he'll RESET the play, get it to whomever he can without losing the possession. He never looks to get into the paint with the mindset of setting people up. I mean, we're even running pick and rolls with him and he still can't get anybody else an open shot, how much improvement in passing can you see?


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  10. #70
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    I think this thread was based on an assumption that just isn't correct. Bargnani is not "our most vital player". If he isn't our #1 option in our offense, then why is he taking the most shots when he is shooting under 40% from the field.

    Kyle Lowry is our most vital player. The guy is averaging 16.4/6.0/5.5 with 1.8 spg. He is "the head of the snake" on defense, and the one guy we have that can beat his man 1-on-1 off the dribble to make plays. He is our 3rd leading scorer on only 12 FGA's, our second best 3pt shooter, our second best person at getting to the FT line, and he leads our team in both steals and rebounds per game.

    Behind him I would say JV is the most vital to this franchise. He has the skill set to be a game changing defensive player, and when he starts getting more touches and staying o the floor over 30 mpg regularly. DC knows this, and that is why they threw him into the fire right away. He will probably score 15-20 ppg once they give him consistent touches with his ability to create easy points by beating his man down the court, knocking down FT's and grabbing offensive rebounds.

    Our 3rd most important player now is Derozan. He is taking the next step we thought we would get from him last year. He is rebounding and making more plays for others. He isn't going to lead all SG's in assists any time soon, but he does look improved. He has numbers very similar to Richard Hamilton's when he was younger. Not superstar level just yet, but an effective player. Hamilton shot under 30% from 3pt land 3 times in his first 5 years, including 03/04 when Detroit won the championship. He also only averaged 20+ ppg twice in 14 years.

    I would even rank Calderon ahead of Bargnani on my "most vital" list. He is shooting 48.5% from downtown and averaging almost 8 assists per game in under 30 minutes.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I think this thread was based on an assumption that just isn't correct. Bargnani is not "our most vital player". If he isn't our #1 option in our offense, then why is he taking the most shots when he is shooting under 40% from the field.

    Kyle Lowry is our most vital player. The guy is averaging 16.4/6.0/5.5 with 1.8 spg. He is "the head of the snake" on defense, and the one guy we have that can beat his man 1-on-1 off the dribble to make plays. He is our 3rd leading scorer on only 12 FGA's, our second best 3pt shooter, our second best person at getting to the FT line, and he leads our team in both steals and rebounds per game.

    Behind him I would say JV is the most vital to this franchise. He has the skill set to be a game changing defensive player, and when he starts getting more touches and staying o the floor over 30 mpg regularly. DC knows this, and that is why they threw him into the fire right away. He will probably score 15-20 ppg once they give him consistent touches with his ability to create easy points by beating his man down the court, knocking down FT's and grabbing offensive rebounds.

    Our 3rd most important player now is Derozan. He is taking the next step we thought we would get from him last year. He is rebounding and making more plays for others. He isn't going to lead all SG's in assists any time soon, but he does look improved. He has numbers very similar to Richard Hamilton's when he was younger. Not superstar level just yet, but an effective player. Hamilton shot under 30% from 3pt land 3 times in his first 5 years, including 03/04 when Detroit won the championship. He also only averaged 20+ ppg twice in 14 years.

    I would even rank Calderon ahead of Bargnani on my "most vital" list. He is shooting 48.5% from downtown and averaging almost 8 assists per game in under 30 minutes.
    I agree with this. When everything was drawn up for Bargs last year it was much easier for him to get his. When the rest of the players start to improve and we need to play TEAM ball, his offense goes down and the rest of his game is exposed.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    i think he could have. he would get exploited by explosive 3's but there are slower players at every position that still manage to excel based on other attributes. his length would have been a huge advantage at both ends.
    Im sorry Jamie but no he wouldnt. He couldnt even do it when he first came into the league. Its only natural that over time, your gonna put on weight and lose a step or two.

    Plus he would lose so much value. Then he just becomes a guy who can "shoot" at the 3. There are plenty of swingmen that can do that.

    The team had the right idea of making him a 5. With Bosh here it was the only position he was going to be able to pay. Im sick of people acting like him going from the 4 to the 5 is like going from point to C.
    Last edited by The Wise 1; 12-03-2012 at 04:21 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    i'm going to do something i rarely do here - defend Andrea.

    Andrea is not entirely to blame here. the organization tried to change him from the moment they drafted him. if they wanted a rugged forward then it was up to them to not reward him with playing time when he didn't do what they've asked. The only coach who actually did that was summarily dismissed.

    Andrea probably doesn't have a clue what the organization wants from him any more and it stems in my opinion from the very confusing message the organization has given him for 7 plus years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    in attributing blame for Bargnani's struggles i vote 90% Raptors 10% Andrea.
    Quote Originally Posted by aman_13 View Post
    I'm just saying that Casey setup Bargs to fail this season. Everything is going to sound like an excuse now. Everyone is fed up.
    Lol, there's more excuses in some of these words. Sure, he can't control his role in the offense or how they have treated him. But if he brought 100% effort and intensity each night (the only two things that he can really control), we wouldn't be having this conversation. He needs to lose the skirt and man up.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise 1 View Post
    Im sorry Jamie but no he wouldnt. He couldnt even do it when he first came into the league. Its only natural that over time, your gonna put on weight and lose a step or two.

    Plus he would lose so much value. Then he just becomes a guy who can "shoot" at the 3. There are plenty of swingmen that can do that.

    The team had the right idea of making him a 5. With Bosh here it was the only position he was going to be able to pay. Im sick of people acting like him going from the 4 to the 5 is like going from point to C.
    WOW. normally we agree on everything but I couldn't disagree more. going from 4 to 5, sure i'll give you that. but he's never had the mentality or skills to play what i will term a "rugged" forward position. to me that's the 4 or 5.

    as for the part i bolded that's all he is now anyways so what the heck is the difference?

    edit: i realize now that you said shoot at the 3, not shoot the 3. my bad. i still fail to see the difference though. he could have learned to post up opposing 3's and had a huge advantage in the post.

    and how can you declare him "unable" to play the 3 when the position he ended up playing he was given like 5 years to succeed at?
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-03-2012 at 07:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    Lol, there's more excuses in some of these words. Sure, he can't control his role in the offense or how they have treated him. But if he brought 100% effort and intensity each night (the only two things that he can really control), we wouldn't be having this conversation. He needs to lose the skirt and man up.
    i'm sorry, i understand what you are saying but i disagree. it's hard to bring the appropriate intensity level to a job that you are unsuited to doing well. if Kevin Garnett was unsure of himself he wouldn't be able to play with the intensity that he does.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

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