Last edited by Coupon; 12-02-2012 at 04:36 AM.
"The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson
Shea Stadium Scoreboard May 31, 1964
Mets Dieharder Since '63
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Los Angeles Kings Dieharder Since 1987
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ua you're gone, but never forgotten, R.I.P.
Even when he spends again it'll play out as a rerun of the dissatisfying teams of the 2006-9 period. Every Wilpon Mets team has had glaring fixable holes, even when they've won. He's never, never shown an interest in spending for anything better than good-enough. The only hope is 1/3rd of the league now makes the playoffs, so anything can happen.
Minaya was also spending to the upper echelon levels of MLB payroll wise to accomplish nothing after 2006. They weren't even seeing the playoffs regularly enough to continue justifying payroll to that extent. Look we all know money matters but infrastructure and investing wisely is important too. Omar overlooked that at times which ultimately cost him his job between the increased spending and lack of depth which was producing diminishing returns.
Sandy was brought here obviously to restructure this team, shake off the bad contracts, change the organizational philosophy, take some of the heat for the Wilpons not spending, and look to find a way to piece meal a team together if or until the Wilpons got from under the Madoff hole. Now i would have to believe at some point or another Sandy will be allowed to have the flexibility to create a team of his liking. He's dropped guys like Castillo, Perez, and now Bay and i think they will hopefully get to where at some point in the next 2 years he can start acquiring quality major leaguers and not scrap heap guys due to financial restrictions.
But ultimately, I don't think you can compare situations in that respect because this FO will be looking for different personnel and have a different philosophy on how to win than the previous one. When Sandy is able to spend more significantly i think we will get a more complete understanding of what the direction of the team is.
This team isn't a 50-55 win ballclub in need of a complete transformation, they have pieces to win with the right help and pieces for the future (with the quantity of quality young arms)
It's just a matter of latitude the FO is given in regards to spending money towards key areas, so far the Wilpons have not allowed that in Sandy's tenure aside from Wright.
Last edited by metswon69; 12-02-2012 at 06:02 AM.
Now that they've slithered out of that Jeffy, the real GM, has come out of his hole and is standing in front of the cameras again. He was in charge of the Wright negotiations. He was in charge of the major signings in the Omar era. He was the real GM during the Jim Duquette era.
Fred had been the real GM since he destroyed the 1986 team Cashen built until he passed the baton to Jeffy. I suppose Fred still has the power to override Jeffy.
Mets GMs job is to basically handle small signings, organizational depth, and deflect criticism from the Wilpons. Nothing more. After 26 years, I'm surprised some fans still haven't noticed.
See you make some good points sometimes but you ruin it with that last statement right there.
You can't be serious about no GM having a say since Cashen left?
Steve Phillips had nothing to do with those successful late 90s/2000 Met's teams?
As for our last 2 GMs, If you think Omar had no influence on the decisions being made when he was made GM in 2005 (till the time he was fired) then i don't know what to tell you besides the fact that you are wrong.
And if you think Sandy has no influence here when they spent all that money on a FO (between him, Depo, and Ricciardi) then there is no point in arguing with you because you can't look at things objectively.
Is Sandy here as a favor to Bud and to help deflect criticism from the Wilpons due to their financial issues?
Of course, but you can't seriously believe that's his main job can you?
His main job in the short term leading up to the Madoff case was to assemble a team that he figured had the best chance to win (obviously that being difficult with all the guaranteed payroll of under performing aging talent in 2010 and 2011) then to start ridding the team of those said contracts.
Long term it was to structure a more stable franchise from within (even if some people don't agree with the draft selections or how many draft picks they signed) and then sign players when some of the younger guys like Wheeler, Harvey, Niese, Gee, Ike, Tejada, etc etc had further developed (that target date hopefully being 2014).
What concerns people here is not the fact that the Mets are rebuilding to some extent, it's whether or not the Wilpons have the money to acquire the right help when they are out of the rebuilding phase.
Every organization goes through what the Mets are going through currently. Great example and almost an exact parallel to the Mets, looking to shed large market payroll and rebuild from within (the Chicago Cubs with a much worse record no less.)
That's a big market team in the same position as we are except more active in IFA.
But no one worries about them because Thomas Ricketts is worth billions and they know he can spend when they look to contend again.
Epstein is a very good GM but Sandy Alderson knows talent too (and we know he helped usher in a philosophy that is used by the very successful Billy Beane today).
If given the right flexibility Sandy can put a team together that contends but that's only if the Wilpons are willing to spend or can for that matter.
No GM can succeed with 10-15 million dollars in an offseason to work with (without one of the better minor league systems in the game which the Mets spent too long not prioritizing that area to have one now) and that's what SA has been working with since he got here.
Last edited by metswon69; 12-02-2012 at 06:42 AM.
My "agenda"? What the **** are you talking about? The only "agenda" served by calling out the Wilpons as **** team owners is the agenda of truth. I'm sick of watching other fans buy into the Wilpons lying ********.
Do you think a real GM not named Fred or Jeff was behind keeping Reyes all last year, not dealing him at the deadline, letting him win the batting title, and not even making him an offer? And then letting him walk for a couple of picks?
Do you think a real GM would have based his highest draft picks not on talent, but whether or not the prospect was willing to sign below slot? They failed to sign their 2nd round pick over $68,000!
Do you think a real baseball man would have dealt a legitimate Big League starting center fielder for a middle reliever and a fourth outfielder?
Either Sandy Alderson is the stupidest bastard in baseball or the Wilpons are still calling the shots.
And before Alderson?
Peter Gammons knew who the real GM was.
Gammons: Jeff Wilpon real Mets GM
By POST STAFF REPORT
Posted: 5:58 PM, October 14, 2009
At least one baseball observer has a different view of the Mets front office.
Peter Gammons today called owner Jeff Wilpon the general manager, and said Omar Minaya is only "out there to take the heat."
Gammons, as heard on the Michael Kay Show on 1050 ESPN New York, was asked why the Mets had not hired a particular coach. Gammons replied, “Ask the general manager, Jeff Wilpon.”
Asked why Minaya wasn’t interested, Gammons replied, “He’s not the general manager. Omar’s the one out there to take the heat.”
Minaya's job security has been in question almost all season, based on the team's poor play on the field, and the controversy surrounding the firing of executive Tony Bernazard.
The Wilpons (Jeff and his father, Fred) reportedly lost up to $700 million in the Bernie Madoff investment scheme and it is thought it has or will effect the Mets' ability to spend on players going forward.
The reason Bud and Fred brought in the three stooges was because a bigger, more impressive shield was needed to take the greater heat the fire sale of a big market team would generate.
Since Fred and Jeff are still calling the shots, expect the same failed Wilpon strategies we've seen before if and when they start spending again.
Wheeler, Familia, Mejia, Mateo, Gorski, Pill, Mazzoni, Degrom, Lara, Montero, Fulmer, Tapia, etc etc...
The Mets have one of the more intriguing pools of young pitching talent in MLB so Stankiewicz really wasn't a major priority to be signed and they get that pick back this year remember?
Do i think before the Madoff scandal was resolved that the Wilpons were helping to call the shots financially when it comes to payroll flexibility? Yes and they certainly had influence in the Reyes situation but presumably a lot could have changed since the 1 billion dollar lawsuit was lifted off the Wilpons heads in March of this year.
That's the grey area here....
As for Pagan for Ramirez and Torres, yeah you damn right i think Sandy made that trade. Pagan was coming off a bad season with little WAR value, the Mets thought they could kill 2 birds with one stone getting a very good setup man and a CF with relatively equal value coming off a down 2011 for Pagan and what they thought was a down 2011 for Torres.
It didn't work out that way but i am sure that was the idea when they made that move.
As for Gammons, give me a break...
Gammons was also at the forefront of the "Cano has a steroid suspension coming down from the league" rumor that was completely squashed within two days of it being passed around.
His source a guy named Dan Tordjman, an ex tv reporter (claiming to be a current employee) from Charlotte who had to recant the entire story via his twitter feed.
Plenty of guys have baseball sources, it doesn't mean they are credible and it doesn't mean the writer is always 100% correct all of the time.
You have a tendency to do that i noticed, picking out writers that support your agenda and then displaying it around like it's indisputable fact.
Last edited by metswon69; 12-02-2012 at 07:22 AM.
It's the news.
What you mean to say here is I quote a lot of writers who report the news.
That's true. And I can quote plenty more. The idea of those ****s hiring a GM and letting him do his job with appropriate resources and no interference is a fantasy. It's never happened and I don't believe it ever will.
But if you chose to cling to this fantasy I'll let you. For the rest of the morning anyway...
Forgot about Logan Verrett and Gabriel Ynoa too.
The Mets are fine on minor league SP depth.
Is the part about the Wilpons being ****** owners credible? Yeah without question.
Do i think Omar and Sandy had and have little say on the acquired personnel or draft picks made and then signed? Sorry i don't buy that.
They are general managers, that's their job and aside from the Reyes situation in which the Wilpons still had the Madoff lawsuit over their heads i am sure they have let Omar and Sandy do their jobs without constant meddling.
This isn't James Dolan with the Knicks...
Last edited by metswon69; 12-02-2012 at 07:53 AM.
Thank god we are building a mall because I don't know how the hell we were going to compete with 2 players under contract.
I look back at 2012 and the first half we over performed with the likes of guys like Kirk and Duda and Gee... Tajada made us forget about Reyes and Wright was on fire! Ike was all but absent and the bullpen seemed to keep it together. Johan was pitching and Dickey was on the way to a Cy Young award.
Then.... Bay came back (F'd up the chemistry), Gee got hurt, Pelf got hurt (and was actually starting to impress) Kirk stumbled and Torres was terrible (IMO)... the management failed to keep what was working, well... working.
Wright lost some of his Mojo (Bay, deflating everyone? or was he trying to over compensate and press to hard to carry the team?) and they really stalled on bringing up Harvey to replace Gee... (because they thought they would never really compete anyway)
The starting pitching really stared to slide (except Dickey who could/would have to go 9, and Niese had to really step up and be a No. 2)
Since the SP starting to really fail, it put pressure and the spotlight on the shaky BP... then the season was done!
If, we can recapture the 1st half (NO BAY!) and healthy pitching with depth and IF Wright and Ike can both play to their abilities we should be OK.
We are not signing anyone (IMO) significant, just the cheapest guys they can find to fill the holes - and they aren't trading away any young talent (especially Niese, Harvey, Wheeler, Gee) so don't get your hopes up (Hamilton??? lol - never)
We'll get a couple/few PB pieces and one/two no name or past their prime OF's and that's about it - with the outside shot at Dickey being traded because of his age and what he could bring us back, we very well could resign him and easily trade him in mid season for the right package too...
We aren't looking to contend, just build a better future - and that's it
While it fun to play fantasy baseball, we aren't spending money or making blockbuster trades to try and compete - its not happening.