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  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    Holy **** I cant freaken believe what I just read as to this guys attempt to trying to prove me wrong

    You know you don't understand advanced stats and their correct context when your using WPA like baseball statisticians use war

    Just WOW...

    There is a reason Bdawk I haven't provided stats because the "dropped catches", "blocking stats" are only available to people who have paid subscription and aren't available to people like us who don't pay until the regular season is over... N The people on this site who I know pay for it haven't been on much lately because their busy with school and exams otherwise I would've gotten them to print screen it for you, but now after reading that gem, this is an absolute must for me to get my hands on that.

    This is why I said its hard proving people wrong on a forum nowadays because people resort to advanced stats and some people ( like in this instance) start using stats that they have no idea what it really means. But I deff can't wait to reply to that post.

    Not to mention you used a damn bleacher report article stating random numbers they didn't even accurately come up with, but took a random guess to get to.
    Hence I said they weren't be all end all.

    Also hence why I said BR wasn't the best resource, but it was there, and better than an analysis if Aikman/Buck.

    But again, dodge it all, stay a homer, and keep looking foolish with outlandish comments with zero back up.

    OK Nick, here is what I need you do. Go over there and grab me some water, a towel, and make yourself comfortable while I WRECK THIS ISH.

    My name is Mark Sanchez. I am here to save you.

  2. #632
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    So you want me to start using random stats incorrectly and give you false information in a debate? I'm not a lying politician, if im going to argue with someone I want to give them the correct information, that was it not only teaches them something but might teach me something to.

    That Bleacher report article you posted is a random guys opinion with his approximate guess on a players value. It's no different than any ordinary joe doing the same. That's my point and I'm not avoiding anything, how am I supposed to debate against wrongly used stats??


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  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    So you want me to start using random stats incorrectly and give you false information in a debate? I'm not a lying politician, if im going to argue with someone I want to give them the correct information, that was it not only teaches them something but might teach me something to.

    That Bleacher report article you posted is a random guys opinion with his approximate guess on a players value. It's no different than any ordinary joe doing the same. That's my point and I'm not avoiding anything, how am I supposed to debate against wrongly used stats??
    You claimed Maclin to be a terrible blocker who over the last 2 seasons has had soooo many penalties negating big runs of McCoy. I showed how he has had 2 holding penalties called since 2009. Your claim, false.

    Whether you value or like advanced stats, they do help to assess value.

    Say what you want about the BR, I agree, not the best resource. Considering I watched Maclin every game in college, well aware of strengths and weaknesses. You're claim that he is an awful blocker is junk, read any draft report before he came out.

    I'm seriously about done even attempting to discuss things with you, you just don't seem to grasp even the simplest of concepts, you make claims, yet get upset when proof shows differently. At times I feel like I am talking to my 17 year old son. That's not a knock, he's actually quite smart, just awful at accepting things he doesn't agree with, proven or not.

    I get it, you love Jackson. I do too, if used correctly. You talk about our 100 million dollar QB, but don't expect more of our over paid "Wr1". Sorry if Deseans 3-4 catches per game and 2 scores don't overly excite me.

    OK Nick, here is what I need you do. Go over there and grab me some water, a towel, and make yourself comfortable while I WRECK THIS ISH.

    My name is Mark Sanchez. I am here to save you.

  4. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Yes, advanced stats is obviously equal to watching player a and b, without any sort of quantifiable basis and proclaiming a is better than b, just because.

    I agree, Desean is the better player, not the more valuable "WR".

    Show me where I said "best hands" means "best WR".
    You're right, you never said that. I assumed it's what you meant since it's your only argument that Maclin is a better wide receiver than Jackson.

    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    A low end #1, yet out produced, out valued by Maclin.

    Really this was more about the erroneous claim that Mackin was a terrible blocker and constantly negates big runs by McCoy due to his blocking incompetency.

    Also more to the point that Cruz > Jackson.
    Maclin has never, ever outproduced Jackson in any single year let alone over the past 3 or 4 years total. And he certainly hasn't out valued Jackson either. In fact, Jackson is still out producing Maclin this year despite playing one less game.
    SPACE


  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWestKins View Post
    You're right, you never said that. I assumed it's what you meant since it's your only argument that Maclin is a better wide receiver than Jackson.



    Maclin has never, ever outproduced Jackson in any single year let alone over the past 3 or 4 years total. And he certainly hasn't out valued Jackson either. In fact, Jackson is still out producing Maclin this year despite playing one less game.
    No. Better hands, better route runner, better blocker, bigger. This is what makes him a better "WR".

    Jackson's numbers for his contract are far from more valuable than Maclins similar stats (but more scores).

    OK Nick, here is what I need you do. Go over there and grab me some water, a towel, and make yourself comfortable while I WRECK THIS ISH.

    My name is Mark Sanchez. I am here to save you.

  6. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    No. Better hands, better route runner, better blocker, bigger. This is what makes him a better "WR".

    Jackson's numbers for his contract are far from more valuable than Maclins similar stats (but more scores).
    Maclin is absolutely not a better route runner than Jackson. Not a chance. I would say Jackson is a better blocker but the difference either way is negligible. Size doesn't determine how good a receiver is, so we can just throw that one out. Leaving the difference in hands, which I don't agree with but I'll concede.

    Now for Jackson, who has much better speed, is much better with the ball in his hands, and demands double coverage. To go with the much better route running (not sure where you got the idea that Maclin was better).

    And you're comparing value to contract? Realllyyyyyyy reaching there. A players value on the football field (which is the argument) is independent of his contract. And besides, by your logic Jackson was the biggest bargain in the league before this season with his low cap number relative to his great production on the field. I'd hate to see your thoughts on Michael Vick and his negative value to this franchise :laugh3:
    SPACE


  7. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWestKins View Post
    Maclin is absolutely not a better route runner than Jackson. Not a chance. I would say Jackson is a better blocker but the difference either way is negligible. Size doesn't determine how good a receiver is, so we can just throw that one out. Leaving the difference in hands, which I don't agree with but I'll concede.

    Now for Jackson, who has much better speed, is much better with the ball in his hands, and demands double coverage. To go with the much better route running (not sure where you got the idea that Maclin was better).

    And you're comparing value to contract? Realllyyyyyyy reaching there. A players value on the football field (which is the argument) is independent of his contract. And besides, by your logic Jackson was the biggest bargain in the league before this season with his low cap number relative to his great production on the field. I'd hate to see your thoughts on Michael Vick and his negative value to this franchise :laugh3:
    I'll just agree to disagree, this really never goes anywhere. Opinions vs opinions, same ol' sing and dance.

    OK Nick, here is what I need you do. Go over there and grab me some water, a towel, and make yourself comfortable while I WRECK THIS ISH.

    My name is Mark Sanchez. I am here to save you.

  8. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWestKins View Post
    But he does produce like a #1 wide receiver, as I've explained to you many times before. If you expect him to produce like Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald than you're an idiot, because he's obviously not as good as them.
    I don't expect it from him because I know he isn't that good. That's more to my point, he isn't the type of WR1 I want. I want a Fitz/CJ/AJ/Julio/Nicks type. I'm all for keeping Desean around, just not in his current role.

    OK Nick, here is what I need you do. Go over there and grab me some water, a towel, and make yourself comfortable while I WRECK THIS ISH.

    My name is Mark Sanchez. I am here to save you.

  9. #639
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    [QUOTE=BDawk4Prez;24682568]
    You claim me to be wrong, yet show no proof, none at all. This is almost like the Cruz being better than jackson debate, that you miraculously always bring Maclin into it, put him down, in hopes that it makes your argument for Jackson stronger. Well, here we go. I for one can back up my claim of Maclin being a better blocker than Jackson.
    I brought in Maclin as proof of a guy who you constantly say is better than Djax so I was trying to show how much you really hate Djax when you mention guys that he's far more inferior to.



    Although Bleacher Report isn't a Be All / End All to this debate, it is one of the only things out there that i have found that rate WR's in the "blocking" category. If you find something that says otherwise, I'd be glad to see it.

    Maclin - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ivers/page/117

    Jackson - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ivers/page/138

    Tis gives the edge to Maclin. Again, Maclin is a good blocker, Desean is not a great blocker. To say otherwise is absurd, but please, please find something that says differently. I'll wait.
    Here I got someone to look up the stats for me on PFF a more legit stat oriented site. Here are the 2012 numbers so far this year so we don't have to go to your random bleacher report article. This also backs up what a lot of the commentators were saying to because I wasn't aware of these stats until today.

    2012 WR comparison:
    Desean Jackson : 1 drop, 1 penalty, targeted 75 times for 46 catches.
    Maclin: 5 drops, 4 penalties, 87 targets for 52 catches

    Hmmmmmm this exposes a lot of your weak attempt at advanced stats. Let me pick out all the flaws in your arguments now one by one now that I have backed up my argument with actual proof from a legit place.

    I want you to take the homer glasses off when it comes to Desean, and realize he isn't the greatest thing since sliced cheese like you want everyone to believe.
    Ya your right the statisticians who keep track of numbers also must be homers I never rank Djax crazily and have never ranked him higher than guys who are actually better him. I've ranked him fairly and just because you have a lot of built up hate and frustrations with him that cloud your judgment I can't do anything.
    Oh, you mean the whole whopping 2 holding penalites that Maclin has been called for this year? Astounding!! I wonder what hurt the team more? Maclin's 2 holding calls, or the 5 taunting, unsportsmanlike, excessive celebration calls, etc. that are credited to Mr. Jackson in the last 3 years? Hmmm? That doesn't include other penalties such as holding/PI/etc either.
    2 penalties are still more than 1 last time I checked. Even though it's more than 2 like I shown above..

    Also what does unsportsmanlike and excessive celebration penalties have to do with a players talents?? Moreso what does that have to do with his blocking abilities, again you spew random crap that has nothing to do with the argument. Every eagles fans admit he can be stupid at times but that has nothing to do with his talents as a player.

    Again nice try

    2. 2 times this year. And guess who didn't have a single upheld penalty last season (2011), you guessed it, Maclin. But please, please keep making things up. 2010, no penalties for Maclin, 5 for Jackson. I mean, I guess we could go all the way back to 2009 where Maclin had 2 penalties assessed, 1 being for PI, the other was "other", again, not holding. But you are right, many he does it all the time, right? Oops, almost forgot, Desean had 3 in 2009, uh oh.
    You keep pointing out his 2 but not saying a thing about Djax's 1 and admitting you lost that part of the argument

    You tell me I'm the hard headed one atleast when I'm wrong about something I admit it, you just keep trying and trying and keep getting burned by using erroneous stats.

    Another thing is Djax is blocking the better, more stronger and quicker CB's because he's always lined up against the other teams best CB, so for him to only have 1 penalty with that taken into consideration, is a huge positive in showing he's a better blocker.

    So, are we done here?
    I think so because I don't see you coming back with any good statistics disproving me anymore cause I just showed you the main ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    While we are at it, let's look at some advanced stats for receivers, this will be fun. Hopefully this will help put to bed the whole Jackson > Cruz debate, and also shed some light on Maclin not being our best WR.
    lol this is where it gets fun
    Again, stats don't always tell the whole story, but it's much better than the ol' eyeball test.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr
    Nice choice of website, I like FO too, I'll give you respect here in that you picked a good site to use, but the main problem is you use all the numbers incorrectly.

    Looky there, both Cruz and Maclin rate higher than Jackson. Who would have thunk it?
    Oh yes ranking WR's mainly of their production and teams success making them have higher value than a certain player who's on the IR currently?? Oh man a lot of amazing knowledge flowing out of those stats.

    A few interesting tidbits. I know one of the comments that get thrown around a lot is that Jackson has better hands, but looky there, when "actual" statistics are used Maclin has a catch rate noticeably higher than Jackson. Catch rate measure the percentage of passes thrown to the receiver that are completed. Although Maclin has more drops, he catches a better percentage of catchable balls than Jackson.
    Do you even know what catch rate is?? This was the first thing that made me chuckle but Westkins already pointed it out. Catch rate takes into account everything, targets whether your over thrown, under thrown or the balls thrown out of bounds by the QB as a desperation tactic to escaping trouble, or alligator arming them.
    But lets look closely because of the numbers provided by PFF.

    According to PFF this year Djax has one drop out of 75 targets. It also shows he has 46 catches out of the rest of the 74 targets. That means 38 balls were in his vicinity that he couldn't either a) Get his hands on or b) QB had poor accuracy on the ball..

    But here is where the biggest flaw in your catch rate crap comes into play.
    Jeremy Maclin has 5 drops this year out of 87 targets and has 52 catches out of the rest of the 82 targets. That means 30 targets were out of his range or for the reasons I've stated above.

    But were arguing who has the better hands and the only way to judge that is based of drops. Who has more drops?? Maclin by far so guess who win's that argument?? Ya chalk that up to Djax to..

    Another stat that really jumped out was the DPI, DPI lists the number of plays and yards where the receiver drew Defensive Pass Interference.. You'll notice the difference from Maclin to Jackson. Maclin seems to be better at draweing contact and getting a flag, while Jackson hasn't seen that type of production.
    You shouldn't have even mentioned this in the first place, what are you really trying to prove with this statement?? Maclin draws more contact ok?? Jackson draws more coverage?? Whats the difference and which one do people take into consideration when accessing which WR is more scarier??

    The who draws more coverage, the great top end WR's draw a lot of coverage and different looks, thus why Djax always sees multiple action on a given play. This is why Shady rarely runs to Jacksons side because the safety on Maclins side can cheat towards the box because he knows Maclin isn't that creative with his routes like Djax.

    Outside of Jackson's amazing 2009 campaign, Maclin has rated statistically higher in value in each of the other 3 seasons. In all 4, Maclin has rated higher in percentage of catchable balls.
    What do you mean rated higher?? Are you talking about WPA or the FO rating every year??


    In 2011 and 2012, Cruz has been statistically more valuable than both Jackson and maclin both.
    Well duh he's going to be more statistically valuable he was like top 3 in yards last year and had 9 TD's to boot.

    Of course he's going to be more valuable the last two years Cruz's team has won the SB and currently in a playoff spot right now, thus they'll rate him higher.

    You forgot to mention Jason Avant is rated higher than Maclin and Jackson and that's because Avant was productive in our 3 wins this year and in our last victory had the most targets and yards which is why his "value" accrued higher.

    Long story short please if your going to use advanced stats use them in the right context because you only make yourself look foolish.

    Not to mention for a guy who was selected in the first round you would expect him to be marginally better than a 5'10 WR who everyone year in and year out ignorantly calls a one trick pony.
    So, EB4L, let's put this non-sense to bed.
    Anything is good with me
    Last edited by Eagles4Lyfe; 12-12-2012 at 03:54 PM.


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  10. #640
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    [QUOTE=Eagles4Lyfe;24700325]
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    I brought in Maclin as proof of a guy who you constantly say is better than Djax so I was trying to show how much you really hate Djax when you mention guys that he's far more inferior to.




    Here I got someone to look up the stats for me on PFF a more legit stat oriented site. Here are the 2012 numbers so far this year so we don't have to go to your random bleacher report article. This also backs up what a lot of the commentators were saying to because I wasn't aware of these stats until today.

    2012 WR comparison:
    Desean Jackson : 1 drop, 1 penalty, targeted 75 times for 46 catches.
    Maclin: 5 drops, 4 penalties, 87 targets for 52 catches

    Hmmmmmm this exposes a lot of your weak attempt at advanced stats. Let me pick out all the flaws in your arguments now one by one now that I have backed up my argument with actual proof from a legit place.



    Ya your right the statisticians who keep track of numbers also must be homers I never rank Djax crazily and have never ranked him higher than guys who are actually better him. I've ranked him fairly and just because you have a lot of built up hate and frustrations with him that cloud your judgment I can't do anything.


    2 penalties are still more than 1 last time I checked. Even though it's more than 2 like I shown above..

    Also what does unsportsmanlike and excessive celebration penalties have to do with a players talents?? Moreso what does that have to do with his blocking abilities, again you spew random crap that has nothing to do with the argument. Every eagles fans admit he can be stupid at times but that has nothing to do with his talents as a player.

    Again nice try


    You keep pointing out his 2 but not saying a thing about Djax's 1 and admitting you lost that part of the argument

    You tell me I'm the hard headed one atleast when I'm wrong about something I admit it, you just keep trying and trying and keep getting burned by using erroneous stats.

    Another thing is Djax is blocking the better, more stronger and quicker CB's because he's always lined up against the other teams best CB, so for him to only have 1 penalty with that taken into consideration, is a huge positive in showing he's a better blocker.


    I think so because I don't see you coming back with any good statistics disproving me anymore cause I just showed you the main ones.


    lol this is where it gets fun

    Nice choice of website, I like FO too, I'll give you respect here in that you picked a good site to use, but the main problem is you use all the numbers incorrectly.


    Oh yes ranking WR's mainly of their production and teams success making them have higher value than a certain player who's on the IR currently?? Oh man a lot of amazing knowledge flowing out of those stats.


    Do you even know what catch rate is?? This was the first thing that made me chuckle but Westkins already pointed it out. Catch rate takes into account everything, targets whether your over thrown, under thrown or the balls thrown out of bounds by the QB as a desperation tactic to escaping trouble, or alligator arming them.
    But lets look closely because of the numbers provided by PFF.

    According to PFF this year Djax has one drop out of 75 targets. It also shows he has 46 catches out of the rest of the 74 targets. That means 38 balls were in his vicinity that he couldn't either a) Get his hands on or b) QB had poor accuracy on the ball..

    But here is where the biggest flaw in your catch rate crap comes into play.
    Jeremy Maclin has 5 drops this year out of 87 targets and has 52 catches out of the rest of the 82 targets. That means 30 targets were out of his range or for the reasons I've stated above.

    But were arguing who has the better hands and the only way to judge that is based of drops. Who has more drops?? Maclin by far so guess who win's that argument?? Ya chalk that up to Djax to..


    You shouldn't have even mentioned this in the first place, what are you really trying to prove with this statement?? Maclin draws more contact ok?? Jackson draws more coverage?? Whats the difference and which one do people take into consideration when accessing which WR is more scarier??

    The who draws more coverage, the great top end WR's draw a lot of coverage and different looks, thus why Djax always sees multiple action on a given play. This is why Shady rarely runs to Jacksons side because the safety on Maclins side can cheat towards the box because he knows Maclin isn't that creative with his routes like Djax.


    What do you mean rated higher?? Are you talking about WPA or the FO rating every year??




    Well duh he's going to be more statistically valuable he was like top 3 in yards last year and had 9 TD's to boot.

    Of course he's going to be more valuable the last two years Cruz's team has won the SB and currently in a playoff spot right now, thus they'll rate him higher.

    You forgot to mention Jason Avant is rated higher than Maclin and Jackson and that's because Avant was productive in our 3 wins this year and in our last victory had the most targets and yards which is why his "value" accrued higher.

    Long story short please if your going to use advanced stats use them in the right context because you only make yourself look foolish.

    Not to mention for a guy who was selected in the first round you would expect him to be marginally better than a 5'10 WR who everyone year in and year out ignorantly calls a one trick pony.

    Anything is good with me
    I don't hate DJax, just feel he is improperly used, and disappears from the offense too much for my liking.

    So, I show "proof" and you come back with "I asked a guy, and here is what he said". Cool. Also, the BR article was about blocking, that's all I alluded to. I didn't use that for anything "stat" related. Try to keep up. Also, I said 2 holding penalties. that was in reference to the "OMG Maclin always holds this year and last taking back big runs from Mccoy", but good try. Again, try to keep up.

    The unsportsmanlike taunting were a question. What hurts the team more? They have nothing to do with blocking or anything. I didn't intend them to be. You made a claim that Maclin hurt the team with his holding penalties, all 2 of them. I asked which hurt more, plain and simple.

    Amount of penalties shows nothing in terms of being a better blocker. Nothing. Nothing at all.

    The rest is a bunch of opinions, too much blah really.

    As I said, I'm done with this topic. You like him cool, you win.

    OK Nick, here is what I need you do. Go over there and grab me some water, a towel, and make yourself comfortable while I WRECK THIS ISH.

    My name is Mark Sanchez. I am here to save you.

  11. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    I don't expect it from him because I know he isn't that good. That's more to my point, he isn't the type of WR1 I want. I want a Fitz/CJ/AJ/Julio/Nicks type. I'm all for keeping Desean around, just not in his current role.
    So you cry that Jackson isn't good enough, then defend Michael Vick like he's your mother?

    Oh the irony
    SPACE


  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWestKins View Post
    So you cry that Jackson isn't good enough, then defend Michael Vick like he's your mother?

    Oh the irony
    You're cute, really.

    Would I rather have a better QB than Vick, yep. Is he good enough to do the job, yep.

    Would I rather have a better WR than Jackson, yep. Is he good enough to do the job, yep.

    Ignore the actual content of the discussion though, it's cool. To add to it, I've never seen Vick quit on his team, or display the crap that Desean has, repeatedly. Let's not even try to compare heart and effort either.

    I rag on Desean for many different reasons, reasons he has given many to rag on him about. Again, for the comprehension impaired. I WANT DESEAN ON THIS TEAM, just used differently (return game, and find a true #1 to compliment his skills). Hmmmm, kind of the same argument I made with keeping Vick on this team too, only if he wasn't asked to throw from the pocket 40 times a game.

    OK Nick, here is what I need you do. Go over there and grab me some water, a towel, and make yourself comfortable while I WRECK THIS ISH.

    My name is Mark Sanchez. I am here to save you.

  13. #643
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    We will never use Vick or Jackson properly because our offensive coordinator is incapable, so your asking for a miracle here.

    If you gave an offensive genius like Josh McDaniels someone like Djax or Shady, he'd put together one of the most unstoppable offenses in the league. Even the Niners offensive coordintor is creative when Kaepernick is in the game.

    I just don't get why we never use Vick in those option sets, it boggles my mind too.

    Ya he's soft, fumbles a lot and gets hurt easily but it still wouldn't hurt to try.


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  14. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    You're cute, really.

    Would I rather have a better QB than Vick, yep. Is he good enough to do the job, yep.

    Would I rather have a better WR than Jackson, yep. Is he good enough to do the job, yep.

    Ignore the actual content of the discussion though, it's cool. To add to it, I've never seen Vick quit on his team, or display the crap that Desean has, repeatedly. Let's not even try to compare heart and effort either.

    I rag on Desean for many different reasons, reasons he has given many to rag on him about. Again, for the comprehension impaired. I WANT DESEAN ON THIS TEAM, just used differently (return game, and find a true #1 to compliment his skills). Hmmmm, kind of the same argument I made with keeping Vick on this team too, only if he wasn't asked to throw from the pocket 40 times a game.


    I have no choice but to ignore the actual discussion because you provide nothing for your argument.. eaglesbaby puts together a masterpiece of a post and your rebuttal is a pile of garbage that doesn't actual respond to what's said in the post.

    I'm not sure where you got the idea that people don't think you want DeSean Jackson on the team, and frankly I'm not sure how that even matters in this argument. You made the ridiculous statement that Maclin is better than Jackson and have nothing to back it up other than "Maclin has better hands" (which was shown to be untrue) and "Maclin draws more penalties" (!). Then you try to say Jackson doesn't produce like a #1 (proven wrong yet again) so you change it to "well I want a Calvin Johnson at WR" (because they grow on trees), despite the fact that you defend Michael Vick and his suckyness as if he was sucking your dick on a regular basis. Just stop saying stupid **** so we can end this pointless discussion
    SPACE


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    Ouch
    My man just went in deeep


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