The israeli palestinian debate

[stephkyle7]

@ pap,
Its comments like the ones you made which are the most dissappointing of all.
Its not that You are not entitled to your opinion, but rather youve clearly no real understanding of the subject matter.
Its an enormous disservice to spout nonsense that is based in cliff notes explaination of Highly complex situations.

There is no religious conflict between Muslims and Jews.
They lived in peace for more then 700 years.
Mohamed WAS a arab, jew.It is the same Religion with only one distinction that seperates them, That Mohamed was a prophet.

Islam is an Abrahamic religion.So is Judaism, so is Christianity.

It is about power, money and control, which is what an Organized religion REALLY is to begin with.
please research your Ideas before you make silly statements.

[Twitchy]

Its not disrespectful its a fact. It is a desert area with no oil, and is such a small area, its basically a piece of **** land, how is that offensive, did I hurt that area of land's feelings?

I find it offensive that you call it a piece of ****. If I said that about the States, that would be offensive.

It adds nothing to the discussion, and it is disrespectful.

Okay what other claim is there? The British Mandate, where Britain was basically like uhh yea here you all go, now live with it.

You mean the lawful document which states the Israeli's have the rights to the land? Yeah, that would be meaningful.

But hey the Israelis defend it well, that is why it is their land now.

Or, you know, because they got attacked and defended themselves, and then went on a counter attack which resulted with them expanding their borders.

Oh and don't act like Israel doesn't provoke many of the attacks against it, especially with the current Prime Minister. Who completely attacked Obama when he said the whole Pre 1967 borders crap.

Oh, yeah, the Israeli's definitely provoke the hundreds of rockets that are sent into Israel. /Sarcasm

If I was Obama I just would have been like well **** if you are going to act like that were just gonna stop being allies with you and funding the hell out your ****.

Thank goodness you're not Obama then because as you've shown you really don't have a good understanding of the Middle East, either currently or historically.

To be honest most of Europe does not like Israel.

To be honest the world in general outside of Canada and the US don't really like Israel.

I don't really care because there is no benefit to be allies with them.

There is, you just refuse to acknowledge why.

The countries around them don't like us mainly for the very reason we are such strong supporters of Israel.

The countries surrounding them would still hate the Americans whether or not they were allied to Israel.

[valade16]

@ pap,
There is no religious conflict between Muslims and Jews.
They lived in peace for more then 700 years.
Mohamed WAS a arab, jew.It is the same Religion with only one distinction that seperates them, That Mohamed was a prophet.

Islam is an Abrahamic religion.So is Judaism, so is Christianity.

To anyone who doesn't know, it's that Muhamed was the last prophet. There will be no more prophets after him.

You say Israel isn't a racist state, then at the same time casually state that of course they have diff immigration policies because it's a Jewish home state. You can't have it both ways, either they have race based policies or they don't. I find it hard to believe that you truly feel Arabs in Israel aren't second class citizens, they're very open about it, it's not some kinda secret. It seems as tho it just trying to convince urself of something which u know isn't true.

Saudi also has American and European citizens, who actually live in better conditions and have better facilities than many Saudi nationals. Does this mean they are not a racist state? Do you think they are? Because I do.

No matter how u want to slice it, Arabs receive less resources for their education system, so I'm not really sure where ur trying to go with all that, as none of that changes the fact.

And yes, every country in the world has economic disparity. And when that that disparity can be clearly broken down by race, there is always a racist agenda behind it be it the after effects of imperialism or slavery or whatever.

I think the problem here is people have a hard time differentiating between a racist/discriminatory state when they see some of the people living well despite the discrimination.

It's the idea of a slave who lives in luxury vs a free man who lives in poverty. Just because there are Muslims doing well for themselves or the oppression overall isn't violent doesn't mean there aren't discriminatory laws against them.

Having an ally in the region is actually pretty important because most of the surrounding nations aren't exactly fans of the US.

The Catch-22 is many of those nations aren't fans of the US because of our alliance with Israel.

[Twitchy]

It's not a catch-22 because they would hate America regardless of whether or not they are allied with Israel. It's just icing on the cake.

[valade16]

It's not a catch-22 because they would hate America regardless of whether or not they are allied with Israel. It's just icing on the cake.

Actually the CIA published reports from the late 90's said that US interference in the region was the single biggest reason for the animosity amongst most of our enemies in the region.

Although at this point our involvement has been so heavy-handed and ongoing simply leaving them alone would do very little.

[stephkyle7]

If you want to get technical(lol).
The jewish faith has 1000s of documented Prophets.
Adam,being the first, Jesus one of if not the last(recorded)
Islam recognizes ALL THE JEWISH PROPHETS...ALL OF THEM.
but yes,Mohamed was the last (and closest to GOD) according to Islam, and according to Judaism, he was neither, they make reference to him as laying the path for the Messiah,but not being a true prophet.

As I pointed out before(i think).
The need for a Messiah, in any context was derived from the scriptutes regarding King David of David and Goliath fame.
He Reunited the 12 tribes of Israel and much like moses wasnt allowed into Judea, David wasnt allowed to led the jewish faith by building a Temple to GOD in Juresalem.

He had shed too much blood.he was unclean, undeserving.
Thus began the "idea" of the need for a saviour or Messiah.

Christians and Muslims both claim Jesus as the Messiah,did you know that? They(muslims) believe Christ was the messianic saviour spoken of in the bible, just as Christians do.

JEWS, are the only ones who dont recognize christ as Messiah. to them he is another of many, many prophets.

Muslims,on the other hand ,do not recognize the Messiah Christ as being God himself.
And yes, infact See Mohamed as the final and greatest of Prophets.

My initial point remains the same...they are arguing over semantics.Prophet, Messiah, God himself in human form, these are notions from thousands of years ago with no hope of ever being resolved.

But the fact that they all, every splinted faction of Judaism, be it Islam,catholics, protestants, orthoxdox jews,Born again christians...together they form 2/3rd of the worlds population, 4 billion people all agree who GOD is, and then argue over who was his FAVORITE child.
Its stupid, stupid in the tallest order, and if you peel back the layesr of truth what you see is religious leaders are no different then political leaders, they manipulate the masses for their own benefit and gain..They are not fighting over religion, because TOMORROW, if the Mulahs claimed that they had visions of christ and mohamed merging into one person, and suddenly realized(sacrasm) that Muhamed must have been christ reborn that friction would end.

religion is the TOOL,of choice in the Middle east, as Capitalism is the TOOL of the west, but the Goal is always, power money and control.Always.

[GasMan]

Of course it is. So why do we disproportionately back Israel despite the blowback we encounter in the region?

[stephkyle7]

OF couse it is?

GM you are giving a whole lot of credit where Im not sure it is due(lol).
Getting everyone ON THAT PAGE alone would be a monumental feat.
I mean, can you imagine how far we could come as a people if we just figured THAT out?


IMO, we back Israel becasue of a cathexis phenomenon, or like in leadership roles how people will refuse at all costs to admit they were wrong.

The west chose to create a solution, they fealt was fair.
there was no turning back.period.
That and the fact that Wealthy Jews immigrated to america at its inception and have used their wealth to buy influence and shape our foreign policy towards Israel.

I mean, these are long standing arguments from the Arab people, and they arent wrong in their accusations, and Ive never heard a single politician try to argue they are wrong.
That is why THEY hate us, so much, becasue to them we are simply a proxy, we are the Muscle that backs up israel because we are bought and paid for just like our politicains.

what they dont seem to get is that there are in the exact same dynamic.The shas, and emirs, and sultans, TOLD the religious leaders .."we need your help kepping the Jews in line, all our slaves(peasants) are leaving to go work for them because they pay better and the get to live better and its starting to piss us off".
so they started preaching intolerance, when before they preached unity.
what has changed in the last 50 years is that becasue the people of these countries have been kept subservant for so long they have little if anything left except their religion.
once this became true, the religious leaders started turning on the poilitical leaders becasue they no longer had any leverage over the masses,they were all poor and devote.
Now the religious leaders are in charge and they see no reason to stop what has worked out so well.

You can take that assement and plug in plutocrats, where the religious leaders are and you have the dynamic that has been going on in the states for 80 years now.
they have sold America on chasing thje brass ring of wealth that they dangle just out of reach and then give out the 1 in a million example of someone whos "made it" to keep us focused on the prize while they drain every last penny they can possibly squeeze from us.

But Im ranting(again).
Israel IMO does deserve to exist, but they should be forced to return the border to the "green line" wether they like it or not and WE should be the ones that make them do it ,to show the world we arent picking sides unfairly. then we should subsedize the palestinian state with infrastructure and other programs and turn Jerusalem into the "kingdom of GOD" like it was supposed to be.
people with something to lose dont want bombs going off in their neighborhoods, why is that so hard to figure out?

put in some peace keeping forces...and there you go.....

[GasMan]

My of course comment was me agreeing that its all about money and power.

[stephkyle7]

I understood that, My rebuttal was that most people would dissagree(i think)
they chase their tails as is intended by the constant argument.
If we could just get people to wake up..

Religious leaders/politicians/Kings/dictators/corporate CEOs..they are all the same person wrapped in different clothes..

Empires always crumble, be they georaphic or financial.
It is the story of babylon and 3000 years latter we still havent figured that out.

That is one reason federalists champion the dec entralization of authority.You cannot tend to the needs of people in CA from Washington DC.

Now before any Rs chime in...Yeah thats what weve been saying, give the power back to the states,
the same holds true in the financial sector too.

You cant tend to the financial needs of California from wallstreet.The banks and corporations should be broken up TOO.

doing one without the other would be a folly of biblical proportions.

[Snake Plissken]

General Marshall was absolutely correct when, as President Truman's Secretary of State discouraged the creation of Israel.

[stephkyle7]

hindsite is 20-20,I dont know if I agree snake, but we are here now.
as I suggested earlier, it appears clear to me that the pilgramage of jews from judea/palestine wasnt by choice in most cases, and borders were very maleable for centuries.
Dont they deserve some place to call their own?
The "palestinian people" are the same as the Jordanians and egyptians, and Lebanese,and to a lesser extent Iranian,Iraquis and syrians.The are all Arab muslims.
Cant jews hae their tiny little sliver of dirt?

[GasMan]

The problem isn't that they got a sliver of dirt, it's that they got THE sliver of dirt that everyone cares about. And it was given to them by people with no claim to that sliver of dirt. If Europe had given them the Rhone Valley no one from the Middle East would give **** (the previous inhabitants of the Rhone Valley might feel a little perturbed).

[stephkyle7]

No question, but whats done is done, they arent going anywhere now,unless they are wiped out. shot of that IMHO, if we lavished the palestinians with the land that we DID give them, return jerusalem to their control, or make it a multi national city like Berlin with representative governance by all three faiths in equality,and then provide international policing,I think it wouls stop.The people provoking the Israelis arent palestinian, they are mostly foreign Islamist that pass freely through borders.
If it was a Nicer place to live, they would stop allowing the riff raff from passing trough to launch rockets becasue they wouldnt want ther stuff to get ruined. Like I said, people living in clay single room homes arent glad theyr sh got blown up, but...hey, iots a clay Hut.Give them a nice single story, central airconditioned,fromt lawned culdesac house, and theyll be out on SAT. morning in their bathrobes water the lawn with smoke in one hand and a water in the next saying"hi bob" to their neighbors and telling them jihaddists...ahhhh, yeah...you need to gtfo.

[nastynice]

The Muslim empires werent as accepting as you seem to believe.They extarcted a toll for their tolerance. they forced Christians and jews to "pay" for thier religious freedom a practice known as The "Jizya".

They also lived by a different set of rules that didnt apply to Muslims regarding citizenship,Lordship,they were "second class' citizens,and were made to accept that or suffer the consequences.

British Imperialism was different in that they were interested in Efficiency and bringing things up to a standard.

well, I feel I gotta address this a bit. You saying people living by a different set of rules are considered "second class citizens" is an opinion, as muslims were (generally speaking) subject to more laws and harsher punishment.

Also, yes there was a Jizya tax, but you should give the full picture of this. This tax gave protection. I wish I knew the exact names off the top of my head but I don't, anyway there was an instance during the crusades where a Jewish tribe living under muslim rule was in danger of being taken over, the muslim empire felt they would not be able to protect this tribe and so they returned to them all of the Jizya they had paid and said we do not believe we will be able to defeat the crusade. Well I guess they did anyway and so I assume they took the money back, but either way this should help clarify a bit what the purpose of Jizya is. I know its a bit off topic but I just felt the need to clarify things a bit.