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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I haven't read too much about Arabs in Israel, but from the little bit I have it seems to be unanimously agreed upon that they receive less govt resources, lesser educational facilities, live in lesser living conditions, have many laws targeting them, and have a different set of immigration laws to abide by. It could be worse, so I'm not saying that to play a victim card for Arabs in Israel, but from what I've seen your statement seems to be inaccurate

    Firstly, you have to leave aside lesser living conditions/income imo. Thats a problem but not what I'm talking about. Minority groups in the US have lesser incomes than whites but its not really a matter of government discrimination. Arab citizens of Israel have equal civil and democratic rights and equal rights under the law and the Israeli Supreme Court. This is not true of virtually any other state in the region with regards to minority groups (let alone their own citizenry.). Part of the economic difference has to do with the fact that Arabs don't generally serve in the Israeli Defense Forces (there exempt as are all non-Jews and don't serve even close to on mass) which has a significant impact on hiring practices and economic activities (since its a compulsary service much networking is made and the disciplne from the army is considered a valuable asset for many jobs in Israel much like it is in the West). Arabs while allowed to serve don't and it hurts them economically. I also won't deny that like minority groups throughout the world, there are certain factors that lower opportunity but this is not unique to Israel and is comparable to the US and other Western democracies.



    In regards to the other issues, I'll address them in order.

    Educational Resources-This is a problem in Israel imo because the fact that Jews and Arabs are in largely (except for a small number of exceptions) separate schools in separate school systems. The reason for this however is not like Black/White schools in the US but for religious reasons. There are many Jews learning in ultra-orthodox schools, and regular orthodox schools and then there are also Arab schools with some teaching some Islam. I would be in favour of more integration but alot of the seperation is self imposed by both parties for religious and cultural reasons and I have to respect the rights of individuals to somewhat make their own chocies and the country to have its own educational system (its not a completely secular state). There have reports about disparity between the Arab and Jewish schools in terms of resource but this launched a major controversy within Israel itself and a Commission designed to fix it. That isn't really the action of a racist state, this sounds like a state that has its problems but trying to fix it. Compared to its neighbours this is much more equal and democratic and is comparable with the problems inner cities schools face in the US, Canada and elsehwere in terms of inequitable resources.

    Laws Targeting Them-I dont know what your talking about for the most part. Arab citizens are equal under the law and discrimination practices by individuals and the government have commonly been knocked down by the Israeli Supreme Court. There have been attempts by far right parties to do certain discriminatory practices but they aren't the mainstream (and really compare to some of the extremists within European/American politics).

    Immigration policy-The immigration policy is certainly different. I don't disagree but Israel is not a secular state with equal policies. Its a Jewish state, abeit one that respects the rights of its minority citizens. The country is not set up to have immigration of non-Jews otherwise it would compromise its position as a Jewish state and the homeland of the Jews. The right of return is not universal, I agree but I don't really see the problem with Israel discriminating with its immigration policy considering its not supposed to be a neutral multicultural state.

    Also again Israel has more people who are not Jewish becomes citizens and accepts more refugees per capita (many including Non-Jews who become citizens) than any other country in the region and deals with refugees much more humanely than the other countries in the Middle East. I


    All of these factors illustrate that Israel has fairly good equality "(if not perfect and improvement can always happen) for its minority citizens especialyl considering the hostile relationships that neighbours have with it and the close relationship that has existed between some Israeli Arabs and Israel's enemies (many suicide bombers for instance were Israeli Arabs). Despite this potential hostility Israel should treat its Arab citizens like anyone else and I think it can say with some pride that it does. Also, again its worth comparing Israel's human rights against its neighbours and enemies (including the Palestinians) and also compare its human rights record considering the security threats it has. One should be consistent and fair when judging Israel's record.

  2. #152
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    I think the Jewish exodus and the Palestinian exodus were very quite different. There seems to be many Jews who say they were not refugees but instead Chose to go to Israel to have bEtter economic opportunity, and stated this applies to majority of the migrants. I was reading on "Persian Jews" and saw that in the early 1900's the vast majority of Jews in Iran were lower class. Then after migration only 1% were lower class, so concerning Iran these statements seem to be accurate.
    There's both. There are Jews who left before the war for economic or religious regions but also those who left because of rising anti-semitism (which caused their low economic conditions) and unequal rights but I was referring to those who got expelled or fled for their lives after the start of the 1947-1948 conflict.

    However you too are right about many Jews being kicked out, I believe during the Palestinian exodus Arab nations decided they were going to kick Jews out of their country if the Palestinians weren't allowed back.
    While you have some history right you have it wrong. They weren;t demanding the Palestinians to be part of Israel. They didn't want an Israeli state and when they went to war with Israel they kicked out the Jews or enhanced discriminatory conditions so much they felt they had to leave.


    lebanon and Iran didn't which is wierd since those seem to be two of the top countries in israels target.
    This is sort of unrelated. Lebanon war happened because of Hezbollah and Iran potential conflict is because of its leadership vitrol towards Israel combined with nuclear ambitions and support of terror.

    While these states might be adverse to Israel and hate/hurt their jewish populations its not entirely related.



    But back to the point of comparing the Palestinian exodus to the Jewish exodus, if you are suggesting these two events were the same as one another I believe you are mistaken
    Why?

    From 1948-1970 800,000-1,000,000 Jews were expelled or forced to flee to Israel. That number actually is larger than the number of Palestinian refugees.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...sh_.22Nakba.22 (Decent background)
    And the difference is these people have become part of Israel as citizens because Israeli gave a **** what happened to them. The Arab nations took no responsiblity for the Palestinains and made them remain in refugee camps in Syria and Lebanon and Jordan untill this very day.

    From 1948-1967 Jordan controlled the West Bank and yet didn't make the Palestinians citizens, Egypt had Gaza and kept them excluded as well.

    We never hear about these issues though when discussing the reasoning for the conditions in Palestinian areas.

    I'm not saying Israel is blame free but its neighbours are certainly largely at fault for this conflict by repeatedly going to war, turning down peace and not helping the Palestinians themselves. Arafat also screwed the Palestinians multiple times with his fanatical leadersip, corruption and lack of desire to really make peace. The Palestinians could have had a state multiple times already and have turned it down. Hopefully, Abas is serious now with his attempts to restart talks.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Yea that's probably true. As far as Palestine well that's obviously understandable, as they are actively oppressed by the state of Israel. Rest of Arab world ur right, there's probably bad blood. I feel like I was reading something about antisemitism spreading thru the Arab world in the 30's. Why was this happening? Some of it made sense as it seemed more about British occupation and their relation with some Jewish communities, but I can't say if that was the entire reason or what. I had just skimmed a few things addressing this. If u have more knowledge on the subject please share, because I didn't really understand it all
    There was a competition between Jews and Arabs in the land for sure but there also had been a historical amount of antisemitism in these regions and several of the Arab leadership were aligned with the Nazis during the 1930's as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni

    This guy for instance.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Ok, if my reading is selective you can correct me, I'm ok with that. I've been using the very links u've been pasting.

    You say they weren't systematically displaced, then you immediately describe a method of systematic displacement.
    I don't understand how you jump to the conclusions with the links that I provided.

    It's not systematic displacement because they legitimately bought the land and decided to kick people who happened to be Arab off of their land. It was their land, they can do whatever they want with their property.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Why is it that Nazi propaganda was becoming popular in the Mideast? Why is it that antisemitism was becoming popular in Europe?
    The Russians persecuted everyone who didn't agree with them politically and started targeting minorities who refused to convert to Christianity.

    As a result, during the turn of the 19th century, the mass Jewish exodus immigrated to nearby countries in order to avoid the Russian pogroms and various other pogroms. At the same time, many countries were suffering from an economic depression and became frustrated. They took their anger out at minorities and blamed them for their economic problems. Many of the minorities were Jews escaping discrimination in their home countries or nomadic tribes like the gypsies.

    The Nuremberg Laws just made this line of rhetoric more popular and more widespread.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    And just to go back to this British mandate, I'm just not understanding. So they said here is land for a Jewish state, here is land for an Arab state, right? From what I have seen, the land of Israel contained about half Jews and half Arabs, correct? So how was it that a "Jewish state" was formed? Why wasn't it touted as a state with half Jews and half Arabs?
    They wanted a two-state solution and they got it. Britain allotted land to the Jordanians, the Egyptians, the Palestinians and the Israelis. Had the Arabs not gotten nationalistic and their religion stuck up their *******s and chose to let Israel be, there wouldn't have been an issue. Instead, they ****ed it up by invading Israel and failed.
    Last edited by Freakazoid; 12-12-2012 at 02:49 AM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Yea that's probably true. As far as Palestine well that's obviously understandable, as they are actively oppressed by the state of Israel. Rest of Arab world ur right, there's probably bad blood. I feel like I was reading something about antisemitism spreading thru the Arab world in the 30's. Why was this happening? Some of it made sense as it seemed more about British occupation and their relation with some Jewish communities, but I can't say if that was the entire reason or what. I had just skimmed a few things addressing this. If u have more knowledge on the subject please share, because I didn't really understand it all
    Arab nationalism is anti-semitic and it has nothing to do with Jewish oppression. They opposed the French and the British because of their colonial rule and decided to align with the Nazis as an ally and an idealogical equivalent. Even to this day certain Arab political ideologies are heavily rooted in Nazism (Ba'ath).

    Arab leaders even went as far as meeting with Hitler to talk about their "Jew Problems". Did you really think Jews living in Palestine were happy that their neighbours were publicly rooting for their deaths? Do you really think that the British helped out the Jews simply because of Zionism or because they had a mutual goal?

    It's quite simple really. The Arabs ****ed up and now they're being ****ed by the Jews who are old enough to remember **** like this.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    I'm not saying Israel is blame free but its neighbours are certainly largely at fault for this conflict by repeatedly going to war, turning down peace and not helping the Palestinians themselves. Arafat also screwed the Palestinians multiple times with his fanatical leadersip, corruption and lack of desire to really make peace. The Palestinians could have had a state multiple times already and have turned it down. Hopefully, Abas is serious now with his attempts to restart talks.
    Bingo.

    Also ask the Palestinians, whose worse Jordan or Israel? I wonder if they still remember Black September.

    From Abbas himself :

    The Arab armies seemingly entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity.
    Last edited by Freakazoid; 12-12-2012 at 03:23 AM.

  7. #157
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    great stuff Jrice.
    thanks for helping educate us in greater depth.

    I also honestly believe that the Europeanization of jewish people over the course of time has also impacted the thier ability to reintegrate into the arab world.
    A huge amount of the jewish population has become "lighter" complected ,while the indigenous people (who are considered White according to geneology) have become darker.
    This once again awakens our genetic propensity for distrust and fear of things which are "unlike" us.It was an Important survival instinct for 1000s of years.Its no wonder why it is so hard to completely remove from society.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    great stuff Jrice.
    thanks for helping educate us in greater depth.

    I also honestly believe that the Europeanization of jewish people over the course of time has also impacted the thier ability to reintegrate into the arab world.
    A huge amount of the jewish population has become "lighter" complected ,while the indigenous people (who are considered White according to geneology) have become darker.
    This once again awakens our genetic propensity for distrust and fear of things which are "unlike" us.It was an Important survival instinct for 1000s of years.Its no wonder why it is so hard to completely remove from society.
    lolwut? You do realize that it's not an ethnicity right? There could be Chinese Jews or even Moroccan Jews.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    great stuff Jrice.
    thanks for helping educate us in greater depth.

    I also honestly believe that the Europeanization of jewish people over the course of time has also impacted the thier ability to reintegrate into the arab world.
    A huge amount of the jewish population has become "lighter" complected ,while the indigenous people (who are considered White according to geneology) have become darker.
    This once again awakens our genetic propensity for distrust and fear of things which are "unlike" us.It was an Important survival instinct for 1000s of years.Its no wonder why it is so hard to completely remove from society.
    While an interesting theory there are some factual problems.

    European Jewry are white but middle eastern Jewry (known as Sphardic Jews or Mizrachi Jews) are not really that white and in fact look quite Arab.

    http://www.google.ca/imgres?um=1&hl=...,r:6,s:0,i:100

    Or consider this fella:

    http://www.google.ca/imgres?um=1&hl=...19&tx=84&ty=81

    Maimonidies is perhaps the most well known Jewish Rabbi of the last 1000 years. He sure aint that white.

    In fact the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachi Jews. (This wasn't really the case in early days of Zionism but they have been a big part of Israel's demographics for a long period.

    There are also a rather substantial modern day Black Jewish population (From Ethiopia and other parts of Africa). The number is 130,000 Jews in Israel who are black.


    There are also about 3000 Chinese Jews located in Shanghai.

    You have sort of made a common mistake in assuming Jews are ethnically white, its just not really true. While maybe 2000 years ago Jews could be considered a real ethnicity its not really the case.

    Israel really isn't a white country.

    Considering Middle Eastern Jews and African Jews are over 3 million people, Arabs are another 1.4 million, and then other ethnic groups including Coptics, Armenians, African Hebrew Nationalists, Assyrians, Slavs, and the naturalized foreign workers from Asia, the country is pretty dang diverse.

    Out of its nearly 8 million inhabitants 2.67 million are Ashkanazi Jews(stereotypical European Jews)

    Edit: The reason you think this is because its estimated 80-90% of American Jews are Ashkenazi

  10. #160
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    yeah, I covered that a while ago,
    Im talking about two thousand years of europeanization.

    My theory is that much like in America today, people of wealth leave city centers in search of a better life, wealthy land owners or business owners fled jerusalem for The "suberbs" so to speak, this migration split the arabic blood ties between jews.

    remember until 570 ad they were ALL jews. THERE WAS NO ISLAM.
    570 years after the first jews started using their wealth to get out of the dirty cities and out into the nice chalets and such, two things happened, the rise of islam, and the inter mixing of Jews with more northern european light completcted peoples.

    1300 years latter, simple natural selection has turned once "arab" jews into now "western" looking jews..
    I often marvel at how little people realize how natural selection has changed peoples appearance,
    Blacks become white, whites become blacks, I mean you guys do understand this right?

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    yeah, I covered that a while ago,
    Im talking about two thousand years of europeanization.

    My theory is that much like in America today, people of wealth leave city centers in search of a better life, wealthy land owners or business owners fled jerusalem for The "suberbs" so to speak, this migration split the arabic blood ties between jews.

    remember until 570 ad they were ALL jews. THERE WAS NO ISLAM.
    570 years after the first jews started using their wealth to get out of the dirty cities and out into the nice chalets and such, two things happened, the rise of islam, and the inter mixing of Jews with more northern european light completcted peoples.

    1300 years latter, simple natural selection has turned once "arab" jews into now "western" looking jews..
    I often marvel at how little people realize how natural selection has changed peoples appearance,
    Blacks become white, whites become blacks, I mean you guys do understand this right?
    Since when were the Jews of Europe rich and just intermingling rich white people?

    Some were but many were quite poor especially those from Poland and Russia and other Eastern European countries.


    In fact during much of the period your talking about (500-1500 lets say), the Jews in Arab countries were richer/more free than the Jews of Europe.

    It doesn't really have to do with wealth at all. Arab Jews are mostly originally from Spain anyway and left after kicked out/persucted in Spain (in fact thats the origin for many "white" Jews as well).

    The reason is basically a combination of intermarriage, conversion, cultural acculturation (adopting the dress of another group makes you look like them also to a degree), and other factors such as climate on skin colour.

    I agree with your basis though sort of.

    Also, just because biology might tell us to be hostile to those who are different, doesn't make it right.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    Since when were the Jews of Europe rich and just intermingling rich white people?

    Some were but many were quite poor especially those from Poland and Russia and other Eastern European countries.


    In fact during much of the period your talking about (500-1500 lets say), the Jews in Arab countries were richer/more free than the Jews of Europe.

    It doesn't really have to do with wealth at all. Arab Jews are mostly originally from Spain anyway and left after kicked out/persucted in Spain (in fact thats the origin for many "white" Jews as well).

    The reason is basically a combination of intermarriage, conversion, cultural acculturation (adopting the dress of another group makes you look like them also to a degree), and other factors such as climate on skin colour.

    I agree with your basis though sort of.

    Also, just because biology might tell us to be hostile to those who are different, doesn't make it right.
    jrice doing work

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    Since when were the Jews of Europe rich and just intermingling rich white people?

    Some were but many were quite poor especially those from Poland and Russia and other Eastern European countries.


    In fact during much of the period your talking about (500-1500 lets say), the Jews in Arab countries were richer/more free than the Jews of Europe.

    It doesn't really have to do with wealth at all. Arab Jews are mostly originally from Spain anyway and left after kicked out/persucted in Spain (in fact thats the origin for many "white" Jews as well).

    The reason is basically a combination of intermarriage, conversion, cultural acculturation (adopting the dress of another group makes you look like them also to a degree), and other factors such as climate on skin colour.

    I agree with your basis though sort of.

    Also, just because biology might tell us to be hostile to those who are different, doesn't make it right.

    where did the Jews of Europe come from?
    Did they fall from the sky like fish scooped up in a tornado?

    all jews came from the middle east, they ceratinly werent in chicago, LOL.

    The dead sea scrolls provided a glimpse to the oldest recorded wriotings of the God of Abraham, which is the one true God consistent with Juedaism, Islam, and Christianity...They all worship the same GOD.
    Now what Im saying is people migrate. as the "one" jewish race spread out, many many people were no longer Living in the ancient lands when Islam rose in 570. The Jews that were already in far off lands, were not swayed by a "new" offshoot religion.
    The People we call Muslims NOW, were once Jews...You understand that truth right?
    before christianity and Islam, there was Juedism and paganism, thats it as far as non asian religious beliefs.
    so, ny point is that 2000 years ago christians, Jews, and Muslims were all the same people, the reason that there are "white" jews now is a result of them moving north and mixing with more nordic in appearance peoples.

    There were no whites in Africa(lol).
    this wasnt by Gods design, it was natural selection, fair skined animals could not survive and thus only dark skinned animals passed on that genetic trait,I mean snow leopards, and artic wolves and polar bears arent white becasue it suits them(lol), only the lighter toned animals survived predators and only the thicker furred animals didnt freeze, 10,000 years latter you cant see any similarity to the grey or Brown variety of the animal, but they all started from the same source.

  14. #164
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    BTW, I wasnt trying to buy into a financial stereotype of Jews being wealthy, I was trying to speculate as to what was the impetus for so many jews to travel so far from the Holy Lands promised to them By their GOD, It is a Odd occurence that according to their teachings, they had escaped persecution as slaves and were deliverd to a land of their own...and then decided to leave?
    again, every muslim in the area, had been a Jew first, but why did so many jews choose to travel...heck maybe it was because they were to poor to stay.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    BTW, I wasnt trying to buy into a financial stereotype of Jews being wealthy, I was trying to speculate as to what was the impetus for so many jews to travel so far from the Holy Lands promised to them By their GOD, It is a Odd occurence that according to their teachings, they had escaped persecution as slaves and were deliverd to a land of their own...and then decided to leave?
    again, every muslim in the area, had been a Jew first, but why did so many jews choose to travel...heck maybe it was because they were to poor to stay.
    Jerusalem was an unstable region. Christians, Jews and Muslims did not always treat each other kindly and depending on the ruling religion, not everyone was treated equally.

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