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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    True, good point, but at the same time these numbers are enough to let me KNOW (not think) that those types of catch phrases (when Israel kills civilians, its a loss) are nothing more than empty words.
    And when the opposition say, "When we kill Israeli citizens, it's a win"?

    Are they nothing more than empty words?

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
    they're Lederhosen



  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    Understanding the history of the region is essential to understanding the problems.
    Under the ottoman empire, yes, you are right.
    The Ottomans were Turkish muslims, but they unlike other dynastys,or empires had a very inclusive society. they allowed for Jewish,and Christians to build churches and synagouges and have religious freedom.
    the bigger problems began after ww1
    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...TZjU-DERgimXTw
    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://w...SYtgv8LMWQo4Tw

    The maps above give a clear account of what happened.

    IMO the Europeanized "white" jews were less tolerable in the minds of the ethnic arabs who had descended from the original jews, so not only was there a Racial, white/brown thing, there was a wealth/poor thing as well as a religious difference thing, I mean jsut about every gripe two peoples could have with each other.

    The Allies ,by supporting and facillitating the return of Jews to the ancient lands are the most responsible party to the problem if a guilty party MUST be identified,But after all they went through not only in Germany, but in nearly all of europe, when they finally came back "home" they werent in the mood to take any more sh from anyone else, which im sure you can understand.

    when I say autonomy, I mean that arabs were not going to be under ANY outside "rule" they were done with that crap as well. So no more Brits,No more Turks, and certainly no long forgotten tenants showing up saying...by the way...1000 years ago my dad owned this lot and we never really sold it so....you gotta go.

    So when they "broke palestine apart, the out cry was basically, well what about over HERE? When they broke it apart a second time it was...Ok so now what about over HERE? That ploy was soon realized for what it was.
    If they had whittled it down to one Jewish street, the next step was to ask for one side of the street.
    They didnt want them there at all.
    Once that became obvious, there was nothing left to do except fight it out...they apparently havent gotten tired of fighting yet.
    I just glanced at those links, but def plan to look at them a bit more in depth very soon.

    And yes, unfortunately this whole "colonialism" nonsense that took place really had a big hand in messing up a lot of parts of the world, this region included.

    And I believe the in addition to the ottomon's, the islamic empire was also very inclusive. I do know of one ruler (I forget his name, people referred to him as a madman) who did destroy some houses of worship, but the following ruler built them right back up.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    Neither of the parties are blameless.
    This I agree with it. Just because I am defending the Palestinians does not mean I think they are free of blame. They could have handled things differently, yes. But at the same time, what Israel did is just wrong, its just flat out wrong, ethnic cleansing is considered borderline genocide by many people, and it is something that is pretty much universally accepted as bad.

    **But, I want to point out a personal observation. There is something very wierd about this particular situation. See look, I'm muslim, and I am aware that an ethnic cleansing is taking place in Sudan, muslims are wiping out christians in the south. Now, I do not know the specifics of this situation, and I realize every story has two sides, but never in my life could I ever stand behind and try to defend these types of actions. They are disgusting. Same with the Serbia Bosnia situation. I never see people trying to defend the actions of the Serbs. Yet somehow, people, for reasons beyond my understanding, seem to have this need to defend israel. It makes no sense. I realize Israel is not the only country that does these types of things, but for whatever reason they seem to be the only country which is being defended for such actions.
    Last edited by nastynice; 12-06-2012 at 09:31 PM.

  3. #108
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    It is all about money, there is no great understanding to be found, or realization, or accomodation, or negotiation.

    Life is about money. People who have it think that by manifest destiny and hard work they are more deserving then those who do not.
    They enjoy the idea of having things that others want.
    Be it worthless rocks pulled from the Ground, or a home that could house 50 people when they live alone. We are infected by the survival instinct of competition.

    That is now ,no longer expressed in speed, or hight, or strength, or plummage like with animals, it is expressed in wealth and success, to be greedy is in our nature,the desire to dominate is also in our nature..If we are generous with the palestianian people, make there little slice of the world a comfortable place to live...this would all go away....

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post

    To Lab,

    See all I wrote to Nasty, answer that, and then recognize, none of the Palestinians under the age of 80 owned these houses you are writing about, and I find that argument to be so totally lacking in logic, that I won't entertain it. Each side argues who was where first. Let's just agree that is an argument that has no winner.
    But there is a winner in the real world. And there is a loser in the real world. One side has all the viable land, and a first-world standard of living. They have beaches, malls, etc. The other has wasteland, an embargo, razor wire, walls, 80% unemployment and hellish lives.

    So I'll try to ask my question again in a way you are less likely to dodge. If the positions were reversed (insert your own description of the conditions, since you reject mine), what do you think world Jewish opinion would be? Moreover, would your opinion change, or would you be supporting the first-world Palestinian Muslim state? In other words, is one of the bases of your opinion simply tribal identification with one side of the conflict?
    “A riot,” said Martin Luther King, “is the language of the unheard.”

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    But there is a winner in the real world. And there is a loser in the real world. One side has all the viable land, and a first-world standard of living. They have beaches, malls, etc. The other has wasteland, an embargo, razor wire, walls, 80% unemployment and hellish lives.

    So I'll try to ask my question again in a way you are less likely to dodge. If the positions were reversed (insert your own description of the conditions, since you reject mine), what do you think world Jewish opinion would be? Moreover, would your opinion change, or would you be supporting the first-world Palestinian Muslim state? In other words, is one of the bases of your opinion simply tribal identification with one side of the conflict?
    Well gee, if you want to be insulting, and make this a question of bigotry, then at least look back and see that I supported our actions in Kosovo, have expressed extreme concern about the people in Syria, and I could go on. I would say if this was, to use your phrase, "tribal identification", I seem to be rather inconsistent. However, I would say you have exposed your bias, in trying to frame your own point of view, that being, not agreeing with your point of view is an obvious form of bigotry.

    The rest of your question is nonsensical unless you are saying that all of these things were there all along, as opposed to built over the last 64 years.

    The absolute dumbest thing I can think of is that those tribal grabbers, picked the piece of land with no oil. Personally, I would be jealous of all those other places that have so much wealth in the dirt.

    As far a lower standard of life, if Arafat had just not backed away from equality, it would not be an issue that we would be discussing. But to answer your question directly, if I were in charge, I would be making deals to get all the aid I could to improve my life, not deliberately sabotaging it by doing everything I could to get what most rationally, I am never going to get.

    So, in closing, the next time you want to accuse me of being a bigot, check your facts. Oh, one more thing, in my life, most of my friends (including my wife of over 30 years) are not part of a life that would reflect tribal identification.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johann View Post
    And when the opposition say, "When we kill Israeli citizens, it's a win"?

    Are they nothing more than empty words?
    I know for a fact that Arab countries treat Palestinians far worse than the Israelis in order to encourage the Palestinians to fight for their home land. It would be interesting to see the number of deaths incurred by Arab states since it's a narrative that's not often heard. ex. Black September

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    .As far a lower standard of life, if Arafat had just not backed away from equality, it would not be an issue that we would be discussing. But to answer your question directly, if I were in charge, I would be making deals to get all the aid I could to improve my life, not deliberately sabotaging it by doing everything I could to get what most rationally, I am never going to get.
    Could you please clarify this paragraph. It sounds as if you're saying had Arafat simply accepted that his people would not get equality there would be no issue.

    If that is the case, how can you not see why someone would not just accept inequality?
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Could you please clarify this paragraph. It sounds as if you're saying had Arafat simply accepted that his people would not get equality there would be no issue.

    If that is the case, how can you not see why someone would not just accept inequality?
    Again with the loaded questions. Instead of making presumptive questions, look at what was offered.

    Arafat would have gotten a road to independence and aid right then.

    Here were the essential elements of the U.S. peace proposal offered to Arafat. Bear in mind that Barak had already accepted these terms on behalf of Israel.

    Shared control of Jerusalem
    Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem would be part of the Palestinian State. Palestine’s capitol would be in Jerusalem.

    97% of the West Bank to the Palestinians

    This would be one contiguous land mass, not four separate parcels as the Palestinians have been saying.

    Right of Return of Palestinian refugees to the new Palestinian homeland.

    Palestinian refugees, wherever they might be, would be allowed to leave refugee camps and return to the new Palestinian homeland. You’ve heard Palestinian apologists say that the agreement contained no “right of return.” Not true. It was there. They could return to the new Palestinian homeland. They could NOT leave refugee camps and move into Israel.

    An international presence in the Jordan Valley.

    A 30 billion dollar fund to compensate refugees.

    That would have improved everyone's life.

    Stop with the idea that this was inequality. It was opportunity.

    Did you know Arafat walked away from these specific offers?

    You want to make a point, make it. Please stop with your loaded question technique. If you don't like the offer, or you think it was inequality, state your position, on the offer itself, instead of editorializing by question.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    As far a lower standard of life, if Arafat had just not backed away from equality, it would not be an issue that we would be discussing. But to answer your question directly, if I were in charge, I would be making deals to get all the aid I could to improve my life, not deliberately sabotaging it by doing everything I could to get what most rationally, I am never going to get.
    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Again with the loaded questions. Instead of making presumptive questions, look at what was offered.

    Arafat would have gotten a road to independence and aid right then.

    Here were the essential elements of the U.S. peace proposal offered to Arafat. Bear in mind that Barak had already accepted these terms on behalf of Israel.

    Shared control of Jerusalem
    Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem would be part of the Palestinian State. Palestine’s capitol would be in Jerusalem.

    97% of the West Bank to the Palestinians

    This would be one contiguous land mass, not four separate parcels as the Palestinians have been saying.

    Right of Return of Palestinian refugees to the new Palestinian homeland.

    Palestinian refugees, wherever they might be, would be allowed to leave refugee camps and return to the new Palestinian homeland. You’ve heard Palestinian apologists say that the agreement contained no “right of return.” Not true. It was there. They could return to the new Palestinian homeland. They could NOT leave refugee camps and move into Israel.

    An international presence in the Jordan Valley.

    A 30 billion dollar fund to compensate refugees.

    That would have improved everyone's life.

    Stop with the idea that this was inequality. It was opportunity.

    Did you know Arafat walked away from these specific offers?

    You want to make a point, make it. Please stop with your loaded question technique. If you don't like the offer, or you think it was inequality, state your position, on the offer itself, instead of editorializing by question.
    I wasn't editorializing by question, I was genuinely asking what you meant by the original bolded statement, because as I read "Had Arafat just not backed away from equality" it sounded like "had Arafat just demanded less than equality". Which I was pretty sure you didn't mean, so it was probably either bad wording or bad reading on my part. However, had you actually believed it as I saw surely you see that my question was a logical one given the context...

    I've already stated my position twice on here. But as to the 2 bolded parts of what was offered Arafat, from what I've read Arafat believed it was either re-appropriate 100% or nothing, so the 97% wasn't sufficient for him, and as to the Right of Return, as I understand it that doesn't actually address or pertain to the original UN GA that established it in the first place, but I haven't read enough into the issue about it to understand it completely.

    I also found this map from an admitedly biased towards Palestinian website, however this shows the proposed land as they see it:

    http://www.palestineremembered.com/i...-Shrinking.jpg

    Do you happen to have a picture that shows how the area wasn't 4 small areas but a continuous land mass as you said was offered to compare, because from the look of that map I can see how the Palestinians felt like their land was being divided into quadrants with Jewish Soldiers possibly surrounding them.

    And after all that I will lay out my position once again:

    Whether it is/was a fair deal or not is irrelevant, as even if it was the failure of the Palestinians to accept a deal shows quite clearly that a peaceful resolution between the 2 parties is as of now a dream.

    So given that either side seems either incapable or unwilling to negotiate in good faith, and are incapable to taking deals that you yourself said was more than fair... we should not be sitting smack dab in the middle taking sides. We have gotten ourselves into an A and B disagreement and we as the C will not solve it. By entrenching ourselves in this issue we are alienating ourselves from the rest of the world by maintaining our position.

    The benefits of our continued involvement in this matter, given the very low likelyhood of an actual peaceful resolution that both sides will agree to, is untenable and needs to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    So, in closing, the next time you want to accuse me of being a bigot, check your facts. Oh, one more thing, in my life, most of my friends (including my wife of over 30 years) are not part of a life that would reflect tribal identification.
    Also, while I in no way think Tribal Identification plays a part in your position, your hostility against those that have a different opinion than yours on this issue can be construed as lending merit to that theory...
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  11. #116
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    I disagree with your premise that neither side is capable of negotiation. It has been demonstrated that one side, with Ehud Barak, has negotiated in good faith.

    I disagree with your conclusion about benefits.

    However, I think we have come to a conclusion of our exchange, because, our perspective on a fair and just solution is so different. I have seen one offered, and am sure another will come along. In the meantime, I am a patient man.

    Something for you to understand about the man who made the offer. Barak was no hippie (which I do not consider a perjorative) he had risen to Lt General in the Israeli Defense Force, he was in fact a military man. He believed in action, and in fact was the architect of the famous Rescue in Entebbe (if you don't know about it, pretty good movie about it). He was chief of the Military Intelligence Directorate. I am writing this so that you can understand who the guy was who was willing to cede part of Jerusalem, an amazing thing to do given the area.

    So a man like that was willing to do that. Not a pacifist, but a warrior did that. So, for you to be right, then what you are saying is that Palestinians are incapable of doing the same thing, to sacrifice something they find is important, for peace, the way that Barak did. Given what I have seen, I may have more faith then sense, but that is who I am, and that is why it makes no sense for us to continue this conversation, unless, you do a lot more fair and balanced, to coin a term, research.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Also, while I in no way think Tribal Identification plays a part in your position, your hostility against those that have a different opinion than yours on this issue can be construed as lending merit to that theory...
    We are done. You insult someone, don't expect them to continue.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    We are done. You insult someone, don't expect them to continue.
    What are these then I wonder?

    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Thanks for playing. It is clear that the coherence of your argument is not based on facts, as shown by your lack of knowledge of the Palestinian Israel conflict.
    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    and that is why it makes no sense for us to continue this conversation, unless, you do a lot more fair and balanced, to coin a term, research.
    Let he who cast the first stone and all that. Just because your insults are subtle doesn't excuse them.

    I wasn't trying to insult you, merely to point out the tone of your posts have seemed to indicate a sense of hostility against those on the other side.

    It seems your opinion is that Israel has given the Palestinians a fair shake and it's the Palestinians who are stubborn/wrong and have been dragging this out. It's pretty obvious that you've picked a side and your refusal to at least acknowledge an argument from the Palestinian side shows this.

    So while you can claim your research into the topic has been extensive, you certainly can't claim it's been "fair and balanced"...

    Either way, we're at an impasse, so there is little point in debating it further.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Well gee, if you want to be insulting, and make this a question of bigotry, then at least look back and see that I supported our actions in Kosovo, have expressed extreme concern about the people in Syria, and I could go on. I would say if this was, to use your phrase, "tribal identification", I seem to be rather inconsistent. However, I would say you have exposed your bias, in trying to frame your own point of view, that being, not agreeing with your point of view is an obvious form of bigotry.
    Mine was a question, not an accusation. If you took it as insulting, so be it. I would venture to guess that religious/tribal identification plays a part in a whole lot of people's opinions about the situation. Wouldn't you think? Are they all bigots? I don't think so, but maybe you do?

    The rest of your question is nonsensical unless you are saying that all of these things were there all along, as opposed to built over the last 64 years.

    The absolute dumbest thing I can think of is that those tribal grabbers, picked the piece of land with no oil. Personally, I would be jealous of all those other places that have so much wealth in the dirt.

    As far a lower standard of life, if Arafat had just not backed away from equality, it would not be an issue that we would be discussing. But to answer your question directly, if I were in charge, I would be making deals to get all the aid I could to improve my life, not deliberately sabotaging it by doing everything I could to get what most rationally, I am never going to get.

    So, in closing, the next time you want to accuse me of being a bigot, check your facts. Oh, one more thing, in my life, most of my friends (including my wife of over 30 years) are not part of a life that would reflect tribal identification.
    I have accused you of nothing. I've asked you a couple of questions. I don't think your answers are bigoted, but I think they're pretty slippery. I've asked you about bias, and you've exploded over accusation of bigotry.

    I will say that pinning the entire economic situation of the Palestinian people on Arafat seems a bit off to me. Perhaps there is more to it? When one party can take anything they want from the other by force of arms, and does so regularly, negotiation is difficult.

    When someone dodges a question, I ask it more directly. When they dodge it again, I ask it more directly. When they get offended by that directness instead of answering, I stop asking and assume I know the answer.
    Last edited by Labgrownmangoat; 12-08-2012 at 03:58 PM.
    “A riot,” said Martin Luther King, “is the language of the unheard.”

  15. #120
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    to suggest that the Israelis have always been bent on claiming Arab lands is disengenuous.
    The green line was never disputed by he israelis.It wasnt until repeated attacks and two declerations of war on Israel that they started "grabbing" land, and their contention has been, to the victor goes the spoils.

    This conflict is being waged through proxy.It is the Iranians behind most of it.
    You cant deal with this situation without dealing with them first.

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