The israeli palestinian debate

[stephkyle7]

No no, definite miscommunication. I do think you have an understanding of the subjects mentioned, I do believe however you are misinformed on particular events. If I came across as condescending then my true apologies, maybe I do get a little over passionate at times and I'll try n keep that in check.

If I seem to lack a basic understanding of the events I would like for you to clear that up for me. I'm just a person who can go off of what I've read and seen, if these sources are inaccurate I'd definitely want to be made aware of it.

To clear one thing up, I do not give only the Palestinians the right of inheritance. It doesn't matter what race, religion, or nationality someone is, they ALL have the right to their own property. Since over a 100 years ago all religions existed in the area, and they all have the right to. The problem is, from my understanding, Israel wanted to create a Jewish state and since all religions were present they decided to ethnically cleanse out the non Jews in order to have a Jewish majority in their state. From my understanding, this is the reason they continue to displace and occupy. This is a problem, these types of actions should not be accepted by anyone, regardless of who is doing the cleansing and who is being cleansed.

I'm not sure what ur saying about the Palestinian children. Earlier you had said that only Palestinians over 80 were directly affected by the exodus, so I pointed out that the current generation is indeed also heavily affcted as their entire lives are the way they are base on the fact that, to my understanding, their Parents were turned refugee

one thing you are missing in your understanding is that up until 570 AD there was no muslim faith, so everyone was esentially arab,and everyone was essentialy Jewish, or hebrew.In 570 the Mulim faith sprang up and splintered from the old testament teachings, but beliefs do not an ethnicity make.

There is no question that from a historical discussion of the issue that ,the land in question was Jewish land..no question whatsoever.
some of the people living there decided to stop being Jewish essentially.
As far as ethnic cleansing and territory takeover, none of that REALLY started until the arab revolts following ww1, in 1929, and 1936, there were attacks against the jewish settlers BEFORE Israel was even officially recognized, once it WAS recognized, the 700,000 Palestinians that were forced out were done so out of fear of continued Violence.

Thing simmered a bit before the Arab israeli war of 1948, which is when Israel expanded its borders, while at the same time Jordan encroached into the West Bank, and Egypt took the Gaza strip.
So in a nut shell, it went like this Roman-ottman-British, then broken into Jordan and Palestine(for the jews) then palestine was broken down again into arab and Jewish.
Bottom line is there was no level of Jewish autonomy that the Arab people were going to allow quietly.
when they tried to get tough, they got beat down and even more of their land got taken ....twice, now they want it back and The Israelis are like why should we? you havent stopped Fing with us from day one.

[nastynice]

one thing you are missing in your understanding is that up until 570 AD there was no muslim faith, so everyone was esentially arab,and everyone was essentialy Jewish, or hebrew.In 570 the Mulim faith sprang up and splintered from the old testament teachings, but beliefs do not an ethnicity make.

There is no question that from a historical discussion of the issue that ,the land in question was Jewish land..no question whatsoever.
some of the people living there decided to stop being Jewish essentially.
As far as ethnic cleansing and territory takeover, none of that REALLY started until the arab revolts following ww1, in 1929, and 1936, there were attacks against the jewish settlers BEFORE Israel was even officially recognized, once it WAS recognized, the 700,000 Palestinians that were forced out were done so out of fear of continued Violence.

Thing simmered a bit before the Arab israeli war of 1948, which is when Israel expanded its borders, while at the same time Jordan encroached into the West Bank, and Egypt took the Gaza strip.
So in a nut shell, it went like this Roman-ottman-British, then broken into Jordan and Palestine(for the jews) then palestine was broken down again into arab and Jewish.
Bottom line is there was no level of Jewish autonomy that the Arab people were going to allow quietly.
when they tried to get tough, they got beat down and even more of their land got taken ....twice, now they want it back and The Israelis are like why should we? you havent stopped Fing with us from day one.

Well I don't see what difference anything from 570 makes.

Good point about the arab revolts. I'm really not too schooled on anything from before the time official "Israel" was created, so I definitely should look into these things. What were the revolts about? Why did they take place, and why were they directed toward jews?

And what do you mean by Jewish autonomy? If they are within and intermixed with other people, how could they have autonomy? Doesn't everyone need to be integrated?

One thing here that I don't really get is what is this need of segregation? Look, I'm not a historian, but as far as I know, when these lands were under rule of islamic empire, people of all faiths/races lived there, people of all faiths/races had representatives holding positions and actively participating in the gov't (for the most part, I think there were a couple rulers who kinda went buckwild). When people are all mixed and living together, what other course can you possibly take? America is a melting pot and is a perfect example of this. How does it make sense for east asians living here to want autonomy and so force out people of other race and move in people of their own? Or if sikhs want autonomy so they cleanse out certain neighborhoods and fill it with their own? This makes no sense. If multiple groups of people live there, does it not make sense that all those people are just treated as normal citizens?

[Johann]

One thing here that I don't really get is what is this need of segregation? Look, I'm not a historian, but as far as I know, when these lands were under rule of islamic empire, people of all faiths/races lived there, people of all faiths/races had representatives holding positions and actively participating in the gov't. When people are all mixed and living together, what other course can you possibly take? America is a melting pot and is a perfect example of this. How does it make sense for east asians living here to want autonomy and so force out people of other race and move in people of their own? Or if sikhs want autonomy so they cleanse out certain neighborhoods and fill it with their own? This makes no sense. If multiple groups of people live there, does it not make sense that all those people are just treated as normal citizens?

You don't see the need of segregation?
You think the Arabs like the Israelis? There are Arabs that are in jubilation when Israelis die, especially civilians (I'll find an example). They would rather there be no Israelis in the Middle East than for Palestinians to have their own land. Some people just can't fathom peace.

And I don't know any Jewish people (or any other religion) in Saudi Arabia, other than Islam.

Sbarro pizza shop bombing in Jerusalem 2001:

Afterwards, when I took the bus, the Palestinians around Damascus Gate [in Jerusalem] were all smiling. You could sense that everybody was happy. When I got on the bus, nobody knew that it was me who had led [the suicide bomber to the target]... I was feeling quite strange, because I had left [the bomber] 'Izz Al-Din behind, but inside the bus, they were all congratulating one another. They didn't even know one another, yet they were exchanging greetings...While I was sitting on the bus, the driver turned on the radio. But first, let me tell you about the gradual rise in the number of casualties. While I was on the bus and everybody was congratulating one another...[33] ”
After hearing an initial report that "three people were killed" in the bombing, Tamimi stated:
“ "I admit that I was a bit disappointed, because I had hoped for a larger toll. Yet when they said "three dead," I said: 'Allah be praised'...Two minutes later, they said on the radio that the number had increased to five. I wanted to hide my smile, but I just couldn't. Allah be praised, it was great. As the number of dead kept increasing, the passengers were applauding

[nastynice]

You don't see the need of segregation?
You think the Arabs like the Israelis? There are Arabs that are in jubilation when Israelis die, especially civilians (I'll find an example). They would rather there be no Israelis in the Middle East than for Palestinians to have their own land. Some people just can't fathom peace.

And I don't know any Jewish people (or any other religion) in Saudi Arabia, other than Islam.

Sbarro pizza shop bombing in Jerusalem 2001:

These types of (mutual) feelings are so now due to the actions of the gov't of Israel. Just as Israeli's celebrate when arabs die, again, due to the actions of particular factions.

Perhaps some people don't want Israel to exist, but it is not to do with the religion of the people, it is to do with the policies of the gov't. If you look at their policies and actions, it is quite understandable why people would not want a gov't like such to exist. It is hard to understand why anyone WOULD want such a gov't to exist.

Saudi is a whole nother subject in of itself, their gov't is oppressors and hypocrites, but that really has nothing to do with this. But believe me, Saudi is no "muslim homeland", I am a muslim and if I go there I will not be welcomed with open arms. They are just exploiters of sacred grounds. and of their own people.

**You take a paragraph and quote it in order to try and say these entire people are bloodthirsy and savages, yet you do not care to wonder what makes people so. People are not just born as such, it is quite ridiculous to think so. You want to break things down into black and white, the good guys and the bad guys, you are doing yourself a huge disservice and guaranteeing ignorance by going this route.

Tell me my friend why was this segregation never needed for so many centuries? Why is it all of a sudden there is this huge need for segregation? I'm obviously ignorant to events which took place in late 1800's and early 1900's, so if you want to bring something to my attention then I will be glad to hear. But from what I know, I see this zionist regime and their actions being the fuel to this fire

***and correct me if I'm wrong, but your response to my previous post is you saying that an ethnic cleansing was justified?

[Johann]

These types of (mutual) feelings are so now due to the actions of the gov't of Israel. Just as Israeli's celebrate when arabs die, again, due to the actions of particular factions.

Perhaps some people don't want Israel to exist, but it is not to do with the religion of the people, it is to do with the policies of the gov't. If you look at their policies and actions, it is quite understandable why people would not want a gov't like such to exist. It is hard to understand why anyone WOULD want such a gov't to exist.

Saudi is a whole nother subject in of itself, their gov't is oppressors and hypocrites, but that really has nothing to do with this. But believe me, Saudi is no "muslim homeland", I am a muslim and if I go there I will be treated like ****. They are just exploiters of sacred grounds. and of their own people.

1) You should change Arabs to the Terrorists of Israel. When Jabari was killed, only his car was targeted and no one else was injured. When Israel kills civilians, it's a loss.

2) I know, democracy sucks.

3) And why nobody talks about Saudi and those other Middle-Eastern countries is beyond me.

[nastynice]

1) You should change Arabs to the Terrorists of Israel. When Jabari was killed, only his car was targeted and no one else was injured. When Israel kills civilians, it's a loss.

2) I know, democracy sucks.

3) And why nobody talks about Saudi and those other Middle-Eastern countries is beyond me.

1) The reality is during the Israeli Lebanese war of 2006 at one point the casualty numbers was
Israeli soldiers: about 80
Israeli civilians: about 25
Lebanese soldiers: about 120
Lebanese civilians: about 1,000
To have the response which you had in 1) shows extreme misunderstanding of what is actually going on. Repeating hollow words has no meaning. You tell me who is the terrorist?

2) What does this mean?

3) Why should they be talked about?

[Johann]

1) The reality is during the Israeli Lebanese war of 2006 at one point the casualty numbers was
Israeli soldiers: about 80
Israeli civilians: about 25
Lebanese soldiers: about 120
Lebanese civilians: about 1,000
To have the response which you had in 1) shows extreme misunderstanding of what is actually going on. Repeating hollow words has no meaning. You tell me who is the terrorist?

2) What does this mean?

3) Why should they be talked about?

1)

Al-Jazeera reported at the time: "Foreign journalists based in Lebanon also reported that the Shia militia chose to fight from civilian areas and had on occasion prevented Lebanese civilians from fleeing conflict-hit areas of south Lebanon. Al-Manar, Hezbollah's satellite channel, also showed footage of Hezbollah firing rockets from civilian areas and produced animated graphics showing how Hezbollah fired rockets at Israeli cities from inside villages in southern Lebanon."

That's just one example. If the terrorist group decides to shoot among civilians, what is Israel supposed to do? What would you do?

Many Hezbollah guerrillas dressed up as civilians. Seriously?

2. Israel = Western culture for the most part. The rest of the middle east doesn't appreciate that.

3. Because these other countries, like you said

I am a muslim and if I go there [Saudi] I will not be welcomed with open arms

How does that not make you upset, but Israel outrages you?

[cabernetluver]

1) The reality is during the Israeli Lebanese war of 2006 at one point the casualty numbers was
Israeli soldiers: about 80
Israeli civilians: about 25
Lebanese soldiers: about 120
Lebanese civilians: about 1,000
To have the response which you had in 1) shows extreme misunderstanding of what is actually going on. Repeating hollow words has no meaning. You tell me who is the terrorist?

2) What does this mean?

3) Why should they be talked about?

You are not looking behind the numbers as it applies to civilians. The reason the numbers on the Hezbollah side are so high is they use civilians as human shields. This is not an Israeli practice. It raises questions, but overall, it gives context. Numbers without context are pretty useless.

[stephkyle7]

Well I don't see what difference anything from 570 makes.

Good point about the arab revolts. I'm really not too schooled on anything from before the time official "Israel" was created, so I definitely should look into these things. What were the revolts about? Why did they take place, and why were they directed toward jews?

And what do you mean by Jewish autonomy? If they are within and intermixed with other people, how could they have autonomy? Doesn't everyone need to be integrated?

One thing here that I don't really get is what is this need of segregation? Look, I'm not a historian, but as far as I know, when these lands were under rule of islamic empire, people of all faiths/races lived there, people of all faiths/races had representatives holding positions and actively participating in the gov't (for the most part, I think there were a couple rulers who kinda went buckwild). When people are all mixed and living together, what other course can you possibly take? America is a melting pot and is a perfect example of this. How does it make sense for east asians living here to want autonomy and so force out people of other race and move in people of their own? Or if sikhs want autonomy so they cleanse out certain neighborhoods and fill it with their own? This makes no sense. If multiple groups of people live there, does it not make sense that all those people are just treated as normal citizens?

Understanding the history of the region is essential to understanding the problems.
Under the ottoman empire, yes, you are right.
The Ottomans were Turkish muslims, but they unlike other dynastys,or empires had a very inclusive society. they allowed for Jewish,and Christians to build churches and synagouges and have religious freedom.
the bigger problems began after ww1
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...TZjU-DERgimXTw
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://w...SYtgv8LMWQo4Tw

The maps above give a clear account of what happened.

IMO the Europeanized "white" jews were less tolerable in the minds of the ethnic arabs who had descended from the original jews, so not only was there a Racial, white/brown thing, there was a wealth/poor thing as well as a religious difference thing, I mean jsut about every gripe two peoples could have with each other.

The Allies ,by supporting and facillitating the return of Jews to the ancient lands are the most responsible party to the problem if a guilty party MUST be identified,But after all they went through not only in Germany, but in nearly all of europe, when they finally came back "home" they werent in the mood to take any more sh from anyone else, which im sure you can understand.

when I say autonomy, I mean that arabs were not going to be under ANY outside "rule" they were done with that crap as well. So no more Brits,No more Turks, and certainly no long forgotten tenants showing up saying...by the way...1000 years ago my dad owned this lot and we never really sold it so....you gotta go.

So when they "broke palestine apart, the out cry was basically, well what about over HERE? When they broke it apart a second time it was...Ok so now what about over HERE? That ploy was soon realized for what it was.
If they had whittled it down to one Jewish street, the next step was to ask for one side of the street.
They didnt want them there at all.
Once that became obvious, there was nothing left to do except fight it out...they apparently havent gotten tired of fighting yet.

[nastynice]

1)

That's just one example. If the terrorist group decides to shoot among civilians, what is Israel supposed to do? What would you do?

Many Hezbollah guerrillas dressed up as civilians. Seriously?

2. Israel = Western culture for the most part. The rest of the middle east doesn't appreciate that.

3. Because these other countries, like you said

How does that not make you upset, but Israel outrages you?

1. Where are they supposed to fire from? What else are they supposed to do? When you have a david vs goliath situation like that in the mideast, guerilla warfare is the only option.

2. Not sure what to make of this.

3. Of course it makes me upset. Did you not pick that up from my post? And of course Israel outrages me, just as it should outrage you. How does it not? This type of racism and oppression should outrage everyone.

[stephkyle7]

Neither of the parties are blameless.
I find it entirely ridiculous that two faith founded on the same principles would create boundaries of beliefs between blood relatives as if they were cats and dogs.
They are the same people.The both worship the one true God of Abraham according to the writings of the Hebrew bible,the Koran expounded on the Old Testament much like the new testament did for christians, you would think that the "differences" were far less intrusive then the similarities created bonds...people are predisposed to be suspicious and angry to anyone who is percieved as different, that was what Rs tryd so hard to convince americans that Obama was.
People on both sides fan those flames for their own interests and simple minded people march right off the cliff willingly.

[Johann]

1. Where are they supposed to fire from? What else are they supposed to do? When you have a david vs goliath situation like that in the mideast, guerilla warfare is the only option.

2. Not sure what to make of this.

3. Of course it makes me upset. Did you not pick that up from my post? And of course Israel outrages me, just as it should outrage you. How does it not? This type of racism and oppression should outrage everyone.

1. Did you not read from my post, an excerpt from Al Jazeera, saying that Hezbollah wouldn't allow the civilians to flee. Would that not make you upset?

And what are you saying David vs Goliath? It's Hezbollah fighting all of Israel. It's not the Lebanese government. It's a militant group. They shouldn't put Lebanese civilians at risk. Lebanon + other stable countries should have stopped Hezbollah from doing this. It was their own doing.

2. You were saying that people don't like Israel due to their policies with their government. A democratic government. There are no uprisings against Israel's government, from within, unlike in Egypt, Libya, etc.

I was saying Middle-Eastern countries, outside of Israel, despise consistency (can't think of the right word).

3. What I'm getting from your post is that: No matter what any other country does to their civilians, what Israel does is a million times worse.

That's a bias that I am unable to remove from you.

[keymax]

2. You were saying that people don't like Israel due to their policies with their government. A democratic government. There are no uprisings against Israel's government, from within, unlike in Egypt, Libya, etc.

I was saying Middle-Eastern countries, outside of Israel, despise consistency.

What?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but how old are you?

[Johann]

What?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but how old are you?

I don't see how that has anything to do with... anything.

I don't see an issue with my post, besides the last word "consistency". I could have chosen a better word.

[nastynice]

You are not looking behind the numbers as it applies to civilians. The reason the numbers on the Hezbollah side are so high is they use civilians as human shields. This is not an Israeli practice. It raises questions, but overall, it gives context. Numbers without context are pretty useless.

True, good point, but at the same time these numbers are enough to let me KNOW (not think) that those types of catch phrases (when Israel kills civilians, its a loss) are nothing more than empty words.