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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerbang View Post
    Israel helps develop some of our military technology, iirc.
    I believe our entire military communication system is operated by an Israeli company.
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Once again, you have created a tautology. My defense was not what you stated. However, my defense has been people at levels above my pay-grade telling the public about cooperation between Mossad and the United States. Your defense is because you don't know something, it is, a priori, non existent.

    So, at least now we know that your military experience has nothing to do with any knowledge about the strategic value of Israel to the United States. This whole argument on your part comes down to your beliefs, not the statements of Presidents of the United States, who have universally stated that our relationship with Israel is of strategic importance.

    For instance, the President that historically had the rockiest relationship with Israel was Jimmy Carter. He said



    Ronald Reagan said



    Later he said



    George H W Bush said



    I could go on, but frankly, there is no point, because you are sure that there is something else going on here. Your non expertise in this area, which you used as a badge of expertise shows that you have made up your mind based on your self fulfilling assumptions.
    Well, you may very well be right, I don't know, but those quotes you gave say a whole lotta nothing.
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #48
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    Ultimately our relationship with israel comes down to power and control.
    The west arbitrarily decided that a Jewish state was the right course of action for a people that had long been demonized and subjected to unwarrented hardships.

    After the fact, right or wrong became irrelevant.
    Does Israel share intelligence with us. Of course they do.
    Do wealth jews excercise all the influence at their disposal to shape foreign policy? of course they do.
    Our safety is not at all tied to the protection of Israel (directly),but we(the west) made a decision, once a decision has been made...there aint no goin back.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Well, you may very well be right, I don't know, but those quotes you gave say a whole lotta nothing.
    Its not nothing just becasue you don't like what it says.

    Those numerous quotes reflect US policy toward Isreal over the last 30+ years. Its not nothing by any measure. You might find the words hollow, or wrong, but our policy has been reflected in these words from presidents, democrat and republican alike for over a generation.

    But hey, morons like Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, and Clinton... they are nothing compared to the intellectual might in an internet sports forum. Reminds me of a quote:

    Vizzini: "I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my brains."

    Man in Black: "You're that smart?"

    Vizzini: "Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

    Man in Black: "Yes."

    Vizzini:" Morons"

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    Its not nothing just becasue you don't like what it says.

    Those numerous quotes reflect US policy toward Isreal over the last 30+ years. Its not nothing by any measure. You might find the words hollow, or wrong, but our policy has been reflected in these words from presidents, democrat and republican alike for over a generation.

    But hey, morons like Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, and Clinton... they are nothing compared to the intellectual might in an internet sports forum. Reminds me of a quote:

    Vizzini: "I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my brains."

    Man in Black: "You're that smart?"

    Vizzini: "Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

    Man in Black: "Yes."

    Vizzini:" Morons"
    I think u misunderstood me.

    All those quotes showed was presidents SAYING that keeping a relationship with Israel is in our best interest. In no way did it answer what valade was asking, which is HOW is this relationship with Israel in our best interest.
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I think u misunderstood me.

    All those quotes showed was presidents SAYING that keeping a relationship with Israel is in our best interest. In no way did it answer what valade was asking, which is HOW is this relationship with Israel in our best interest.
    I did misundstand, my apologies.

    I think it would be hard to come out and specify why Isreal is so important to us strategically, for the backlash that would ensue.

    My understanding from colleagues who had jobs more important than mine was that Isreal shares information with us on terrosist networks, intelligence, among other things as yet unspecified. The way it was described to me was that we basically use them as a buffer to project our interests in the Middle East, given we have had common interests over these decades. Specifically against Lebanon, Palestinian terrorists, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, Iran again, and after Beirut in 1983, that relationship solidified even more.

    Take that for what its worth. I take all of that with a grain of salt, since I have little means to verify any of that, and even less desire to do so, for the attention it would attract. I try to read up on the subject, but I find everythnig I read is slanted one way or the other, and objectivity is near impossible to find on this issue. Therefore, its hard for me to know exactly what to think or feel on the subject.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    Ultimately our relationship with israel comes down to power and control.
    The west arbitrarily decided that a Jewish state was the right course of action for a people that had long been demonized and subjected to unwarrented hardships.

    After the fact, right or wrong became irrelevant.
    Does Israel share intelligence with us. Of course they do.
    Do wealth jews excercise all the influence at their disposal to shape foreign policy? of course they do.
    Our safety is not at all tied to the protection of Israel (directly),but we(the west) made a decision, once a decision has been made...there aint no goin back.
    Right or Wrong should never be irrelevant. We made the choice to send troops / money there, we can make the choice to discontinue the money and pull the troops out.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Once again, you have created a tautology. My defense was not what you stated. However, my defense has been people at levels above my pay-grade telling the public about cooperation between Mossad and the United States. Your defense is because you don't know something, it is, a priori, non existent.

    So, at least now we know that your military experience has nothing to do with any knowledge about the strategic value of Israel to the United States. This whole argument on your part comes down to your beliefs, not the statements of Presidents of the United States, who have universally stated that our relationship with Israel is of strategic importance.

    For instance, the President that historically had the rockiest relationship with Israel was Jimmy Carter. He said

    Ronald Reagan said

    Later he said

    George H W Bush said

    I could go on, but frankly, there is no point, because you are sure that there is something else going on here. Your non expertise in this area, which you used as a badge of expertise shows that you have made up your mind based on your self fulfilling assumptions.
    You seem to misunderstand. I'm not trying to argue a factual point over whether the US is or has been allies with Israel. As such the fact that you reference people above my pay-grade saying they are of strategic importance really doesn't mean anything other than they say that. And considering myself and others think it's more of a political play to get wealthy Jewish donors to keep support for a candidate, any speech trumping an alliance with Israel could very well be pandering for that reason just as likely as it could be that Israel really is vital to our strategic security.

    You said in the bolded that your defense was not what I stated, i.e. that you believe that Israel is of strategic importance because our leaders say it is; and then in the next bolded go on to say that very thing. I also find it funny that you say that I (singular form) "don't know something", i.e. top secret intelligence regarding Israel's strategic importance... well... do you?

    Unless you do have such knowledge (and thus could share it) then we are both ignorant as to that information, which means neither of us can use it to support our opinions.

    And the word opinion is was very deliberate there. I'm not trying to single-handedly change US policy from an internet forum, I'm stating my opinion and asking a simple question, one that we are now 2 pages deep in this thread and has yet to be answered:

    Why specifically is Israel vital to our strategic security?

    No one can answer that other than some weapons were developed by the Israelis and the below:

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I believe our entire military communication system is operated by an Israeli company.
    As nastynice has said:

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Well, you may very well be right, I don't know, but those quotes you gave say a whole lotta nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I think u misunderstood me.

    All those quotes showed was presidents SAYING that keeping a relationship with Israel is in our best interest. In no way did it answer what valade was asking, which is HOW is this relationship with Israel in our best interest.
    Those speeches tell us absolutely nothing. But here we are again at the same contention by you: that they are indeed vital to our Security interests because our Presidents say they are, which you told me earlier is not what your defense of our alliance with Israel was... yet you have now brought that up a 2nd time.

    So, why do you think Israel is vital to our strategic security, other than our politicians tell us they are (specifics please)?
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    I did misundstand, my apologies.

    I think it would be hard to come out and specify why Isreal is so important to us strategically, for the backlash that would ensue.

    My understanding from colleagues who had jobs more important than mine was that Isreal shares information with us on terrosist networks, intelligence, among other things as yet unspecified. The way it was described to me was that we basically use them as a buffer to project our interests in the Middle East, given we have had common interests over these decades. Specifically against Lebanon, Palestinian terrorists, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, Iran again, and after Beirut in 1983, that relationship solidified even more.

    Take that for what its worth. I take all of that with a grain of salt, since I have little means to verify any of that, and even less desire to do so, for the attention it would attract. I try to read up on the subject, but I find everythnig I read is slanted one way or the other, and objectivity is near impossible to find on this issue. Therefore, its hard for me to know exactly what to think or feel on the subject.
    I actually wouldn't take that information with a grain of salt, because I believe all of that to be true. I DO believe that we have common interests with Israel over the middle east. However, THIS is kinda what my beef is. These common interests have almost nothing to do with any of us common citizens, and more to do with big businesses manipulating our government to operate in a manner which is conducive to their business.

    Now I realize that if we have all this access to oil reserves, it does help the pocket of the consumer. But the degree to which it helps our pockets vs business owner pockets is not even in the same league. And also, look, I like money too, I want to save money too, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to wipe out scores of people, or oppress entire populations in order to keep that money in my pockets.
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post

    So, why do you think Israel is vital to our strategic security, other than our politicians tell us they are (specifics please)?
    If I understand you, Presidents, and others in authority, who have actual knowledge of specific strategic ties with Israel are not to be accepted as proof, and I am sure that you know that from an intelligence point of view, we gain boots on the ground intelligence from Israel, and you deny that as strategic value, then I am left with an absurd position.

    If I in fact have strategic intelligence information that is limited in whose eyes can see it, then I cannot state it. So, there would be no answer given.

    If I rely upon people of rank who state that we have a strategic benefit, but they cannot state specifics for the above given reasons, no specific answer can be given.

    In fact, your argument comes down to either a purely isolationist definition of strategic interest, which has been shown to fail as a strategy, or an anti-Israel position, veiled in an argument that is not your real argument, or, something else that you don't care to state.

    In any case, your entire position is one that denies me some basic information, or fails to explain to my ability to understand what it is that you are really saying. In any case, it makes no sense to me. The sole exception would be an allegation that we have no strategic interests in the Middle East at all, which brings us back to isolation. If you believe our strategic interests are limited to those of the Monroe Doctrine, or even more restrictive, than we have no commonality of understanding, and, therefore no further reason to discuss this issue. If you do believe we have a strategic interest beyond those outlined in the Monroe Doctrine, then your denial of boots on the ground intelligence and statement of people in authority make no sense to me.

    Your challenge of specifics is by its very nature sophistry, because, in no way would I be allowed to answer your question, and you know it.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    If I understand you, Presidents, and others in authority, who have actual knowledge of specific strategic ties with Israel are not to be accepted as proof, and I am sure that you know that from an intelligence point of view, we gain boots on the ground intelligence from Israel, and you deny that as strategic value, then I am left with an absurd position.

    If I in fact have strategic intelligence information that is limited in whose eyes can see it, then I cannot state it. So, there would be no answer given.

    If I rely upon people of rank who state that we have a strategic benefit, but they cannot state specifics for the above given reasons, no specific answer can be given.

    In fact, your argument comes down to either a purely isolationist definition of strategic interest, which has been shown to fail as a strategy, or an anti-Israel position, veiled in an argument that is not your real argument, or, something else that you don't care to state.

    In any case, your entire position is one that denies me some basic information, or fails to explain to my ability to understand what it is that you are really saying. In any case, it makes no sense to me. The sole exception would be an allegation that we have no strategic interests in the Middle East at all, which brings us back to isolation. If you believe our strategic interests are limited to those of the Monroe Doctrine, or even more restrictive, than we have no commonality of understanding, and, therefore no further reason to discuss this issue. If you do believe we have a strategic interest beyond those outlined in the Monroe Doctrine, then your denial of boots on the ground intelligence and statement of people in authority make no sense to me.

    Your challenge of specifics is by its very nature sophistry, because, in no way would I be allowed to answer your question, and you know it.
    We gain boots on the ground intelligence from a myriad of countries as well as our own sources, so I'm absolutely questioning whether the boots on ground intelligence they bring to the table is worth the reaction to our vehement support for them.

    Additionally, I am going on the assumption you are not a person with Top Secret or confidential strategic security information and thus are free to divulge whatever reasons you have why Israel is of strategic value. It seems to me that you are arguing that you either are a secret agent for the US and cannot divulge your reasons, or you don't have access to the required information; which leads me to ask why you believe they are of strategic value without proof?

    As for the isolation bit, it seems you are narrowing our involvement in Middle Eastern affairs to only 2 possible scenarios: Support Israel to this degree or practice a completely isolationist approach. I believe there are several other possible ways to interact with the Middle East than only the 2 you present.

    Am I correct in assuming that the reason you support our alliance with Israel is based on A). The boots on the ground intelligence they provide to the US and B). that said boots on ground intelligence counter balances the negative effects of such alliance, and C) that part B is confirmed by our Presidents endorsement of the alliance?
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    We gain boots on the ground intelligence from a myriad of countries as well as our own sources, so I'm absolutely questioning whether the boots on ground intelligence they bring to the table is worth the reaction to our vehement support for them.

    Additionally, I am going on the assumption you are not a person with Top Secret or confidential strategic security information and thus are free to divulge whatever reasons you have why Israel is of strategic value. It seems to me that you are arguing that you either are a secret agent for the US and cannot divulge your reasons, or you don't have access to the required information; which leads me to ask why you believe they are of strategic value without proof?

    As for the isolation bit, it seems you are narrowing our involvement in Middle Eastern affairs to only 2 possible scenarios: Support Israel to this degree or practice a completely isolationist approach. I believe there are several other possible ways to interact with the Middle East than only the 2 you present.

    Am I correct in assuming that the reason you support our alliance with Israel is based on A). The boots on the ground intelligence they provide to the US and B). that said boots on ground intelligence counter balances the negative effects of such alliance, and C) that part B is confirmed by our Presidents endorsement of the alliance?
    I had to laugh at your secret agent statement. Clerks, engineers, secretaries, whole regular categories of people who are not secret agents have to be cleared. If it makes you feel better, I will state without equivocation, that I am not now nor have I ever been a secret agent. Beyond that, I will no longer engage on the subject.

    Second. Israel has been the most stable allied government in the area. They are now and have been our best source of intelligence in the area for a very long time. We have nothing close. You can argue we should, but as of now, we don't.

    My statements about intelligence sourcing was in response to your question about strategic value. I do not care to argue any more about the value of this intelligence because you and I seem to not have the same understanding of its value.

    I never said Israel is the only source of intelligence, just the best and most reliable.

    I do not now nor have I ever said anything that is a complete defense of all Israel has done, but in all honesty, I can make the same statement about my wife. And no, I will not expand on that statement.

    As for why I support our alliance with Israel. It is in some ways the same reason why I supported our intervention in Kosovo. If I have to explain beyond that, then you will either never choose to agree, or, in the alternative, understand.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    I had to laugh at your secret agent statement. Clerks, engineers, secretaries, whole regular categories of people who are not secret agents have to be cleared. If it makes you feel better, I will state without equivocation, that I am not now nor have I ever been a secret agent. Beyond that, I will no longer engage on the subject.
    I'm glad you laughed, as it was purposefully sensationalized to show my extreme skepticism that you are privy to any classified information being sent to the US by Israel. Hence why I began with:

    "Additionally, I am going on the assumption you are not a person with Top Secret or confidential strategic security information and thus are free to divulge whatever reasons you have why Israel is of strategic value."

    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    I do not now nor have I ever said anything that is a complete defense of all Israel has done, but in all honesty, I can make the same statement about my wife. And no, I will not expand on that statement.
    That is a strawman. Nowhere did I ask you to defend all actions that Israel has engaged in, I simply asked you to provide specific evidence as to why Israel is actually vital to our strategic defense. I would never ask you, or anyone, to defend the entirety of a nations actions as I myself would never defend the entirety of the US's actions...

    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    As for why I support our alliance with Israel. It is in some ways the same reason why I supported our intervention in Kosovo. If I have to explain beyond that, then you will either never choose to agree, or, in the alternative, understand.
    I agree to an extent, but at what point do we say enough is enough, we are putting too much effort, money, and time into this? At what point does the cost outweight the benefit considering the backlash we are receiving for our actions?..
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post

    I agree to an extent, but at what point do we say enough is enough, we are putting too much effort, money, and time into this? At what point does the cost outweight the benefit considering the backlash we are receiving for our actions?..
    You are using a well worn internet technique of never ending questions. You want to say something? Say it!
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  15. #60
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    The US has picked one side, on who they are allied with, and are sticking with them.

    If they decide to back out, they back out. But if they decide to become allies with the other side, then that would be a whole other story.

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
    they're Lederhosen



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