The israeli palestinian debate

[GasMan]

Interstingly enough there is a dynamic at work that suggests something to that very effect, depending on who you ask, Arab birthrates are double that of Jewish counterparts.a 75% majority enjoyed by Israelis,is in jeopardy of losing plurality in the coming century.

so while I am not suggesting they welcomed all Muslims with open arms, they werent trying to ethnically cleanse the land.
Additionally, as I pointed out, the entire country of Jordan was intended to be an arab/muslim homeland for Palestinians, the palestinian state wording became very popular after the fact.

You know what I think? The bottom line is that it has nothingh to do with land or religion...it is about power, which is a veiled way to say MONEY.
who ever is in charge gets to decide who gets what.
There are christians, and hindus, and everything else in most muslim countries around the world.There are muslims and hindus in every christian country in the world, all that really matters to people is ,are they being "cared" for.
If we REALLY wanted to stop this B.S.
we could flood the westbank and Gaza, with Aid...plug them into the international money teat, In essence that is how we solved the Iraq civil war...handing out money.
Money talks...If the world pitched in and made the little land they have now a really, really great and comfy place to live? they would STFU.
when people are absolutely starving to death...they are too busy trying to survive to complain about anything,it is when they are existing at the fringe of survival that they are angry enough,without being desperate enough , to make problems.I am not advocating on either side with those observations, it is just a historical reality, so they either moveup or down, but as long as they are on that line...there will be problems.

When countries plug into the US teat, the well-connected in the country do great but the rest... no so much.

[valade16]

Can someone explain to me what we owe the Jewish community or the country of Israel that we risk antagonizing over a billion other people and possibly the rest of the world by our continued militant support?

[cabernetluver]

Can someone explain to me what we owe the Jewish community or the country of Israel that we risk antagonizing over a billion other people and possibly the rest of the world by our continued militant support?

The way your question is worded, it fails as a question, but does succeed as a statement of your feelings. It is kind of like asking ,"Do you enjoy beating your wife?"

I disagree with the premise.

[valade16]

The way your question is worded, it fails as a question, but does succeed as a statement of your feelings. It is kind of like asking, "Do you enjoy beating your wife?"

I disagree with the premise.

If someone actually beats their wife than the bolded question is a valid one.

Disagree with the premise all you want, I shall re-word it as:

"Why exactly do we continue to support the country of Israel despite heavy world opposition to such support?"

At the end we can either answer the question of why we continue to support Israel or we can argue over the semantics of asking ourselves why we continue to support Israel.

[cabernetluver]

If someone actually beats their wife than the bolded question is a valid one.

Disagree with the premise all you want, I shall re-word it as:

"Why exactly do we continue to support the country of Israel despite heavy world opposition to such support?"

At the end we can either answer the question of why we continue to support Israel or we can argue over the semantics of asking ourselves why we continue to support Israel.

The answer to your reworded question is quite simple. It has been decided that it is overall in the United States strategic best interest to do so. You might not agree, but that is the reason. You see, your premise was just as the one about beating one's wife. So, it is not a matter of semantics, not even close.

And yes, your first question was a comment, not so much a question.

[nastynice]

Can someone explain to me what we owe the Jewish community or the country of Israel that we risk antagonizing over a billion other people and possibly the rest of the world by our continued militant support?

I think you underestimate the amount of control Israel has over this country. Businesses, lobbies, but imo the biggest thing is media. Its such a powerful tool.

It is not necessarily in "our" best interest, it is in "their" best interest.

[stephkyle7]

^ yes.
ever since the early 1900s Jewish Immigrants of wealth came to the US.
They hold a lot of prominent buisness positions(banking, entertainment).
That and the fact that they allow for a almost colonial application of our democratic, capitalist system, in a part of the world that is highly resistant to it has created the dynamic we have now.

[Johann]

I think you underestimate the amount of control Israel has over this country. Businesses, lobbies, but imo the biggest thing is media. Its such a powerful tool.

It is not necessarily in "our" best interest, it is in "their" best interest.

Israel = Jewish?

[valade16]

The answer to your reworded question is quite simple. It has been decided that it is overall in the United States strategic best interest to do so. You might not agree, but that is the reason. You see, your premise was just as the one about beating one's wife. So, it is not a matter of semantics, not even close.

And yes, your first question was a comment, not so much a question.

You've given an answer without actually saying anything. Why is protecting Israel in our best strategic interest?

I'd argue it's not in our best strategic insterest at all, it is in "our", and by our I mean the politician hoping to get elected's, best political interest.

I think you underestimate the amount of control Israel has over this country. Businesses, lobbies, but imo the biggest thing is media. Its such a powerful tool.

It is not necessarily in "our" best interest, it is in "their" best interest.

^ yes.
ever since the early 1900s Jewish Immigrants of wealth came to the US.
They hold a lot of prominent buisness positions(banking, entertainment).
That and the fact that they allow for a almost colonial application of our democratic, capitalist system, in a part of the world that is highly resistant to it has created the dynamic we have now.

Essentially, this.

As a Soldier in the military, I have never once seen, heard, nor briefed on any benefit, or any singular thing that Israel has done or is doing that is vital to our nations strategic security.

I believe it is a purely political interest by those trying to get elected to cater to a wealthy group of Jewish people in the US.

Or, to ask another question, what do you think would happen to our strategic security if we stopped supporting Israel? Would anything change really?

[cabernetluver]

As a Soldier in the military, I have never once seen, heard, nor briefed on any benefit, or any singular thing that Israel has done or is doing that is vital to our nations strategic security.

I believe it is a purely political interest by those trying to get elected to cater to a wealthy group of Jewish people in the US.

Or, to ask another question, what do you think would happen to our strategic security if we stopped supporting Israel? Would anything change really?

Oh, and exactly what was your mos and rank, just that I might be able to understand your exact level of expertise? So far, all I am reading leads me to believe you have a firm belief, but nothing to exactly qualify your experience. Since you decided to use your military experience as proof of your expertise, I would really appreciate a fuller description. Since you said Israel has done nothing, then of course you have full understanding of how the Mossad has not worked in any way with United States intelligence. Please explain how you know this.

[fingerbang]

Israel helps develop some of our military technology, iirc.

[C-ross12]

Israel hasn't been backed into any kind of corner they've systematically taken over more and more land through brute force and then had to deal with people fighting back for what they also consider their own home.

Israel has more military might than the rest of the Middle East put together. If we let them off of their leash they could conceivably deal with the Mid East by themselves. They are one of the most powerful countries in the world.

The solution is to get out of this mess and let both sides off of their leash. Let them deal with their own problems and if it ends up that Israel marches in and wipes Palestine off the face of the planet than so be it. We need to let other countries determine their own fate so long as they leave us alone.








http://paul.house.gov/index.php?opti...talk&Itemid=69




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...m_hp_ref=world

This. We have far too long been in other peoples business. Can you guys imagine if a country did to us as we do to them? It would be instant war. Can you imagine if we let another country put a military base in our country with troops, guns ect? It's ridiculous, costly, and quite frankly, insulting to other people. Let other countries have their own soverignty. If one messes with us, deal with it harshly and swiftly.

[valade16]

Oh, and exactly what was your mos and rank, just that I might be able to understand your exact level of expertise? So far, all I am reading leads me to believe you have a firm belief, but nothing to exactly qualify your experience. Since you decided to use your military experience as proof of your expertise, I would really appreciate a fuller description. Since you said Israel has done nothing, then of course you have full understanding of how the Mossad has not worked in any way with United States intelligence. Please explain how you know this.

I'll admit I don't have a Top Secret clearance nor would I have been briefed or know anything about the highest levels of our security, but I do find it ironic and a little hypocritical that your defense regarding the support of Israel is "the government has told us they are of strategic importance, therefore I believe it" when that was the exact same justification for invading Iraq and the WMDs yet you don't seem to hold the same philosophy regarding that...

Perhaps the Israeli's are the singular most important part of our strategic defense, but I'll ask again:

Do you know specifics on why Israel is such a vital part to our stategic national security?..

[cabernetluver]

I'll admit I don't have a Top Secret clearance nor would I have been briefed or know anything about the highest levels of our security, but I do find it ironic and a little hypocritical that your defense regarding the support of Israel is "the government has told us they are of strategic importance, therefore I believe it" when that was the exact same justification for invading Iraq and the WMDs yet you don't seem to hold the same philosophy regarding that...

Perhaps the Israeli's are the singular most important part of our strategic defense, but I'll ask again:

Do you know specifics on why Israel is such a vital part to our stategic national security?..

Once again, you have created a tautology. My defense was not what you stated. However, my defense has been people at levels above my pay-grade telling the public about cooperation between Mossad and the United States. Your defense is because you don't know something, it is, a priori, non existent.

So, at least now we know that your military experience has nothing to do with any knowledge about the strategic value of Israel to the United States. This whole argument on your part comes down to your beliefs, not the statements of Presidents of the United States, who have universally stated that our relationship with Israel is of strategic importance.

For instance, the President that historically had the rockiest relationship with Israel was Jimmy Carter. He said

I would like to emphasize, in the strongest possible terms, that our aid for Israel is not only altruistic; indeed, our close relationship with Israel is in the moral and the strategic interest of the United States. There is a mutual relationship and there is a mutual benefit and there is a mutual committment, which has been impressed very deeply in my mind and also in the minds of the leaders of my Government and the Government of Israel. And I will continue to work with the leaders of Israel to strengthen even further our common commitments and our common goals. We know that in a time of crisis, we can count on Israel. And the people of Israel know that in a time of crisis, they can count on the United States. ...

Ronald Reagan said

Only by full appreciation of the critical role the State of Israel plays in our strategic calculus can we build the foundation for thwarting Moscow's designs on territories and resources vital to our security and our national well-being.

Later he said

Since the foundation of the State of Israel, the United States has stood by her and helped her to pursue security, peace, and economic growth. Our friendship is based on historic moral and strategic ties, as well as our shared dedication to democracy.

George H W Bush said

The friendship, the alliance between the United States and Israel is strong and solid, built upon a foundation of shared democratic values, of shared history and heritage, that sustains the life of our two countries. The emotional bond of our people transcends politics. Our strategic cooperation—and I renew today our determination that that go forward—is a source of mutual security. And the United States’ commitment to the security of Israel remains unshakeable. We may differ over some policies from time to time, individual policies, but never over the principle.

I could go on, but frankly, there is no point, because you are sure that there is something else going on here. Your non expertise in this area, which you used as a badge of expertise shows that you have made up your mind based on your self fulfilling assumptions.

[nastynice]

Israel = Jewish?

mmm, not necessarily. It's a bit more complicated than that