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  1. #16
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    Why have a UN, or an organization of countries if the will of 130+ countries is trumped by the veto power of two?

    I hate to say it, but Israel is an oppressive regime...and our loyalty to Israel only makes the United States less safe.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    Why have a UN, or an organization of countries if the will of 130+ countries is trumped by the veto power of two?

    I hate to say it, but Israel is an oppressive regime...and our loyalty to Israel only makes the United States less safe.



    No soup for you!!!

    double check the voting, you are wrong.Also the TWO donot have veto power over the vote that was taken, Palestine WAS confirmed as a non member particpating state.

    The security council of which Israel is not a part only has veto authority over "substantive matters"

  3. #18
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    Here's a link with a fairly well established timeline of the region.

    http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...ourceID=000635

    For those who seem to take a staunch side that one party has any real right over this land over the other, the issue is in question back long before Babylon even existed. Even if it did, the land has been attacked, conquered, controlled, and re-established time and again since, just like pretty much every square foot of land on this planet.

    Throw in the post WWI and WWII boundary creation extraveganzas in the middle East and Africa, and you've got one ****ing huge **** pile to sort through, with everyone thinking they are right, and evreyone willing to kill to get their way. Its the clearest historical lesson from recorded time.
    My thought- move the UN to Jeusalem, and put the area under international control. There is no more inddependant Isreal, no independant Palestine. These groups have literally demonstrated for millenia they are unwilling to sort this issue out themselves. so, if a solution must be found then let's go back to the pretentious solution of doing it internationally.

    I wish us luck with this. Its time all these *******s stopped killing one another, and its the clearest historical lesson in the history of time that they won't do it on their own.
    Last edited by Patsfan56; 11-30-2012 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Language was accidentally deleted as I drafted the post

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post


    No soup for you!!!

    double check the voting, you are wrong.Also the TWO donot have veto power over the vote that was taken, Palestine WAS confirmed as a non member particpating state.

    The security council of which Israel is not a part only has veto authority over "substantive matters"
    The US has and constantly exercises veto power in the security council on behalf of Israel. Israel might as well have its own veto, given our lapdog behavior. And yes, you're right that we couldn't veto this vote on behalf of Israel, otherwise it never would have passed.

    As for whether there was an official state of Palestine 60 years ago, I am guessing that's pretty darn irrelevant to the people who are living there now. The point is that they were living there and were evicted by the Israelis, and not included as citizens of their new state of Israel. What is it you think they should do? They're certainly not welcome to join Israel, right? That would presumably involve giving them the vote, for one thing. . .
    "The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. . . Are we all in this together or are we all not?" - David Simon, creator of The Wire

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    Here's a link with a fairly well established timeline of the region.

    http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...ourceID=000635

    For those who seem to take a staunch side that one party has any real right over this land over the other, the issue is in question back long before Babylon even existed. Even if it did, the land has been attacked, conquered, controlled, and re-established time and again since, just like pretty much every square foot of land on this planet.
    Nice link, although just a very surface level outline.

    But as lab kinda touched on already, a lot of the issues that people have with Israel is their racist/oppressive policies enforced by the gov't. Its definitely a complex situation, and I'm not saying one side is 100% right and one side is 100% wrong. However, I can say that one side is being oppressed of their human right, and one side is doing the oppressing.
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  6. #21
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    These people don't get along and the one major reason is religion. Genetically the people are almost the same, but miles apart because of religious philosophy and beliefs.

    I purpose a one state solution where people are free to practice whatever religion they want and come and go as they please. Elect officials from both the jewish, muslim and christian backgrounds and compose government services and policing including people of all religious backgrounds and faiths.

    Come together in the region and work to make it a great place. Or stay divided and keep at each others throats for another couple of thousand years.

    Make it one place to be taken care of by all in that place. No one better than the other and the fair treatment of all people to be put above everything else.

    At one point in time this was a big open area with no lines in the sand no borders to defend and brief periods of war between the inhabitants but mostly outsiders on occasion.
    Last edited by Randy West; 11-30-2012 at 12:47 PM.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Nice link, although just a very surface level outline.

    But as lab kinda touched on already, a lot of the issues that people have with Israel is their racist/oppressive policies enforced by the gov't. Its definitely a complex situation, and I'm not saying one side is 100% right and one side is 100% wrong. However, I can say that one side is being oppressed of their human right, and one side is doing the oppressing.
    My intent was to give some folks a starting point in understanding more about the history of the area. There seems to be a discrepancy between the forcefulness of opinions for either Isreal or Palestine, and the level of knowledge into the areas actual history.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    My intent was to give some folks a starting point in understanding more about the history of the area. There seems to be a discrepancy between the forcefulness of opinions for either Isreal or Palestine, and the level of knowledge into the areas actual history.
    very true, good point

    I definitely fall into that category, as I just do not seem to understand the justification for the Israeli side of the story, so its always good to see new information regarding the situation
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  9. #24
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    One thing about this process that is so difficult is askign folks to let go of bitter hatred that has been developed not just in the distant past, but for people living now, who lose family and friends to violence. If someone murdered a family member of mine, I'd kill them if I could find them. Asking others to move on, and even make peace ewith those they hate seems like an awesome task to request, one I am not sure I could do myself.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    The US has and constantly exercises veto power in the security council on behalf of Israel. Israel might as well have its own veto, given our lapdog behavior. And yes, you're right that we couldn't veto this vote on behalf of Israel, otherwise it never would have passed.

    As for whether there was an official state of Palestine 60 years ago, I am guessing that's pretty darn irrelevant to the people who are living there now. The point is that they were living there and were evicted by the Israelis, and not included as citizens of their new state of Israel. What is it you think they should do? They're certainly not welcome to join Israel, right? That would presumably involve giving them the vote, for one thing. . .
    and yet they lived together for thousands of years under various authorities without all this violence.
    The turks, The British...and additionally ,you seem to be refusing the fact that Jordan is Palestine, if its not then what was it created for?
    Additionally, they are and were welcomed into the Israeli state, ironically it was the other way around, Jordan deported all Jewish people across the river, while to this day there are thousands of Muslim citizens of Israel who identify as palestinians.
    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...FVC8pv5pOWS0nA


    they are citizens and they do have voting rights

  11. #26
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    we need to continue to support Israel they are being attacked because of their religion and we must continue our friendship with them.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    and yet they lived together for thousands of years under various authorities without all this violence.
    The turks, The British...and additionally ,you seem to be refusing the fact that Jordan is Palestine, if its not then what was it created for?
    Additionally, they are and were welcomed into the Israeli state, ironically it was the other way around, Jordan deported all Jewish people across the river, while to this day there are thousands of Muslim citizens of Israel who identify as palestinians.
    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...FVC8pv5pOWS0nA


    they are citizens and they do have voting rights
    Are you trying to tell me that all the people in Gaza and the West Bank would be welcome to join the state of Israel, constituting a voting majority? I foresee some resistance. If not, what is it you're trying to say?

    Historically, some of the then-current residents were allowed to remain and became citizens. That much is certainly true. It was a carefully measured number of people, guaranteed never to constitute a voting majority. Is your vision of the area where tens of millions of Israelis are now living that it was empty before they arrived? That all the people living there were allowed to remain and become Israeli citizens?
    Last edited by Labgrownmangoat; 12-02-2012 at 09:50 AM.
    "The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. . . Are we all in this together or are we all not?" - David Simon, creator of The Wire

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    we need to continue to support Israel they are being attacked because of their religion and we must continue our friendship with them.
    We must continue to support South Africa, even with that little apartheid problem. . . or maybe we don't.

    As it turns out, when you buy a country a top-rate military, regularly invade or attack their national enemies, and continuously guard their interests in the UN, you have some leverage over how they behave. If we chose to do so, we could prevent human rights atrocities that the rest of the world (almost universally) clearly sees as unacceptable. We choose not to do so, instead supporting a de facto apartheid state. That is not only morally wrong, it's strategically idiotic.
    "The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. . . Are we all in this together or are we all not?" - David Simon, creator of The Wire

  14. #29
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    Interstingly enough there is a dynamic at work that suggests something to that very effect, depending on who you ask, Arab birthrates are double that of Jewish counterparts.a 75% majority enjoyed by Israelis,is in jeopardy of losing plurality in the coming century.

    so while I am not suggesting they welcomed all Muslims with open arms, they werent trying to ethnically cleanse the land.
    Additionally, as I pointed out, the entire country of Jordan was intended to be an arab/muslim homeland for Palestinians, the palestinian state wording became very popular after the fact.

    You know what I think? The bottom line is that it has nothingh to do with land or religion...it is about power, which is a veiled way to say MONEY.
    who ever is in charge gets to decide who gets what.
    There are christians, and hindus, and everything else in most muslim countries around the world.There are muslims and hindus in every christian country in the world, all that really matters to people is ,are they being "cared" for.
    If we REALLY wanted to stop this B.S.
    we could flood the westbank and Gaza, with Aid...plug them into the international money teat, In essence that is how we solved the Iraq civil war...handing out money.
    Money talks...If the world pitched in and made the little land they have now a really, really great and comfy place to live? they would STFU.
    when people are absolutely starving to death...they are too busy trying to survive to complain about anything,it is when they are existing at the fringe of survival that they are angry enough,without being desperate enough , to make problems.I am not advocating on either side with those observations, it is just a historical reality, so they either moveup or down, but as long as they are on that line...there will be problems.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    so while I am not suggesting they welcomed all Muslims with open arms, they werent trying to ethnically cleanse the land.
    I disagree. I believe this is EXACTLY what they tried to do. They're actions certainly suggest so, the systematic occupation of land and displacement of a population screams ethnic cleansing to me. I'd like to hear you elaborate on your point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    You know what I think? The bottom line is that it has nothingh to do with land or religion...it is about power,
    I agree. I think the whole religion thing is more of a smokescreen. I'm sure it plays SOME role to SOME degree, but is FAR from the central issue.
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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