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View Poll Results: What hat should Piazza wear if elected to Cooperstown?

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  • Mets

    245 76.56%
  • Dodgers

    75 23.44%
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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban View Post
    yeah andre dawson wanted to be a cub and we saw how that went, gary carter the 2nd best mets catcher wanted to go in as a met too, i mean if he does go in with and M on his cap that will be OK, i just hope he doesn't mention the dodgers or thanks them in anyway for making him 100 million dollars because that would be tacky.
    I will repeat myself.

    Bottom line is that Piazza wants to go in as a Met, and as far as "bragging rights" are concerned, that is the most relevant thing to me. It outweighs whatever decision is made by the HoF committee -- that Mike sees himself as a Met before he sees himself as a Dodger.

    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    I will repeat myself.

    Bottom line is that Piazza wants to go in as a Met, and as far as "bragging rights" are concerned, that is the most relevant thing to me. It outweighs whatever decision is made by the HoF committee -- that Mike sees himself as a Met before he sees himself as a Dodger.

    not really the hat on the plaque is what matters most.

  3. #168
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    If not for tommy lasorda we wouldn't be having this conversation

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by old blue View Post
    If not for tommy lasorda we wouldn't be having this conversation
    that's what i'm saying.

  5. #170
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    It sounds dumb and basic but I think the Mets franchise needs this one more than the Dodgers do and I hope the Hall of Fame sees that. I mean when I go to the hall Tom Seaver is the only one I get to see that actually went in as part of my favorite team, and he played far before I was even born.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Piazza View Post
    But I have to say that my time with the Mets wouldn't have been the same without the greatest fans in the world. One of the hardest moments of my career, was walking off the field at Shea Stadium and saying goodbye. My relationship with you made my time in New York the happiest of my career and for that, I will always be grateful.

  6. #171
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    Mike Piazza's top ten offensive seasons (based on OPS):

    1) 1.070 - LAD (1997)
    2) 1.012 - NYM (2000)
    3) 1.006 - LAD (1995)
    4) .985 - LAD (1996)
    5) .960 - NYM/LAD/FL (1998)
    6) .957 - NYM (2001)
    7) .936 - NYM (1999)
    8) .932 - LAD (1993)
    9) .910 - LAD (1994)
    10) .903 - NYM (2002)

    In 1998 he spent his season win three teams. Here is the breakdown:

    LAD - 37 gp / .826 OPS
    FL - 5 gp / .652 OPS
    NYM - 109 gp / 1.024 OPS

    Clearly, he had most of his production in 1998 as a Met, so I consider that a Mets season for him. His 109 games played for the Mets in 1998 are about just as many games he played in the entire 1994 and 1995 seasons each with the Dodgers.

    What point am I trying to make? Well, its simple. The idea that Piazza was easily more productive as a Dodger is a mirage. If you look at his top 10 seasons (1993 - 2002) before he began to decline to a sub .900 OPS player, he was almost equally productive as a Dodger and a Met.

    He had a couple more solid seasons as a Met and even one as a Padre before retiring, but if you look at what he did before his age started to become a factor, his stats as a Dodger and a Met are extremely close.

    The entire argument on the Dodgers behalf is that his best seasons were in LA. However, as shown above, his top 5 Mets seasons were extremely close and right on par with his top 5 Dodgers seasons (his only 5 Dodgers seasons, not counting the irrelevancy of 1992 and 1998).

    In the end, I maintain that with his actual performance being so close with each uniform, that it must come down to three things - Memorable, legacy creating moments, team oriented success, and duration of years playing for the organization.

    Mets hold the advantage in all three of those areas.

    I rest my case.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 01-05-2013 at 04:43 PM.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  7. #172
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    But he had his best production with the Dodgers.

    1993- .401 wOBA, 150 wRC+, 7.6 WAR

    1994- .384 wOBA, 139 wRC+, 3.9 WAR

    1995- .427 wOBA, 168 wRC+, 6.0 WAR

    1996- .416 wOBA, 165 wRC+, 6.6 WAR

    1997- .452 wOBA, 183 wRC+, 9.4 WAR

    1998 39 games w/ Dodgers- .347 wOBA, 115 wRC+, 1.0 WAR
    1998 109 games w/ Dodgers- .432 wOBA, 168 wRC+, 5.9 WAR

    1999- .390 wOBA, 131 wRC+, 4.8 WAR

    2000- .423 wOBA, 153 wRC+, 6.0 WAR

    2001- .395 wOBA, 143 wRC+, 5.0 WAR

    2002- .381 wOBA, 136 wRC+, 4.0 WAR

    2003- .370 wOBA, 126 wRC+, 2.1 WAR

    2004- .334 wOBA, 108 wRC+, 1.1 WAR

    2005- .334 wOBA, 103 wRC+, 1.3 WAR


    Ariana Grande

  8. #173
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    This is another blue in the face argument.

    Piazza's sentiments is he wants to go in as a Met and the HOF tends to put the player in based on a team's representation or lack thereof in the Hall (The Mets having only 1 representative as a player)

    The latter would suggest he goes in as a Met.

    Even the PSD poll suggests his time was more memorable as a Met (as insignificant as that may seem i am pretty sure HOF voters lean that way too)
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-05-2013 at 05:23 PM.

  9. #174
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    And just so people aren't confused if there are any, I'm a supporter of him going in as a Met.


    Ariana Grande

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    Mike Piazza's top ten offensive seasons (based on OPS):

    1) 1.070 - LAD (1997)
    2) 1.012 - NYM (2000)
    3) 1.006 - LAD (1995)
    4) .985 - LAD (1996)
    5) .960 - NYM/LAD/FL (1998)
    6) .957 - NYM (2001)
    7) .936 - NYM (1999)
    8) .932 - LAD (1993)
    9) .910 - LAD (1994)
    10) .903 - NYM (2002)

    In 1998 he spent his season win three teams. Here is the breakdown:

    LAD - 37 gp / .826 OPS
    FL - 5 gp / .652 OPS
    NYM - 109 gp / 1.024 OPS

    Clearly, he had most of his production in 1998 as a Met, so I consider that a Mets season for him. His 109 games played for the Mets in 1998 are about just as many games he played in the entire 1994 and 1995 seasons each with the Dodgers.

    What point am I trying to make? Well, its simple. The idea that Piazza was easily more productive as a Dodger is a mirage. If you look at his top 10 seasons (1993 - 2002) before he began to decline to a sub .900 OPS player, he was almost equally productive as a Dodger and a Met.

    He had a couple more solid seasons as a Met and even one as a Padre before retiring, but if you look at what he did before his age started to become a factor, his stats as a Dodger and a Met are extremely close.

    The entire argument on the Dodgers behalf is that his best seasons were in LA. However, as shown above, his top 5 Mets seasons were extremely close and right on par with his top 5 Dodgers seasons (his only 5 Dodgers seasons, not counting the irrelevancy of 1992 and 1998).

    In the end, I maintain that with his actual performance being so close with each uniform, that it must come down to three things - Memorable, legacy creating moments, team oriented success, and duration of years playing for the organization.

    Mets hold the advantage in all three of those areas.

    I rest my case.


    Piazza career

    NYM - .296/.373/.542 - 136 OPS+, 22.8 rWAR
    LAD - .331/.394./572 - 160 OPS+, 30.7 rWAR

    He was better as a Dodger, there is no denying it. He spent more time with the Mets and produced less there.

  11. #176
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    Just for the sake of argument.


    I support him going in as a Met, I tend to lean toward where the player spent the majority of his time. But I thought this would be a fun exercise, and it proves how much better he was as a Dodger.

    If Piazza had spent his entire career producing like he did as a Met, here is what his stats would look like
    7745 PA
    .296/.373/.542, 136 OPS+, 42.9 rWAR
    414 home runs, 1231 RBI, 3544 Total Bases
    -4.0 dWAR, 252 RAA
    This is not a hall of famer

    And what his career would have looked like if he produced like he did with the Dodgers his entire career.
    .331/.394/.572, 160 OPS+, 75.5 rWAR
    435 home runs, 1385 RBI, 3808 Total Bases
    7.38 dWAR, 573 RAA
    This is an easy hall of famer


    This helps to illustrate how much better he was as a Dodger. He was better as a Dodger, but spent more time as a Met. I assume he'll go in as a Met not a Dodger. But he was better as a Dodger.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Piazza career

    NYM - .296/.373/.542 - 136 OPS+, 22.8 rWAR
    LAD - .331/.394./572 - 160 OPS+, 30.7 rWAR

    He was better as a Dodger, there is no denying it. He spent more time with the Mets and produced less there.
    Dude seriously? That's your argument.
    4 of the 8 was after his prime. Baseball careers aren't a linear graph.

    His oWAR is 31.6 for the Dodgers and 29.1 for the Mets.

    Let me ask you something, how can he have a positive defensive WAR (3.0) when he had 54 PB in 7 years with the Dodgers, with 200 Wild Pitches, while having a negative defensive WAR (-2.1) with the Mets with 15 less PB and 171 Wild Pitches?

    What are some Mike's memorable moments as a Dodger? Just wondering.


    ďNinety percent Iíll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent Iíll probably waste.Ē
    - Tug McGraw, on his plans for his $75,000 salary

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Dude seriously? That's your argument.
    4 of the 8 was after his prime. Baseball careers aren't a linear graph.

    His oWAR is 31.6 for the Dodgers and 29.1 for the Mets.

    Let me ask you something, how can he have a positive defensive WAR (3.0) when he had 54 PB in 7 years with the Dodgers, with 200 Wild Pitches, while having a negative defensive WAR (-2.1) with the Mets with 15 less PB and 171 Wild Pitches?

    What are some Mike's memorable moments as a Dodger? Just wondering.
    Well he wasn't given the same post-season possibilities as a Dodger, but that rookie season was amazing.

    He was certainly better with the Dodgers. And his dWAR is in large part to do with all the base running.

    And yes, he declined with the Mets. But that's certainly part of it. You want to know who he was better with, the reason doesn't matter. It's who he was better with.

    Don't like dWAR.

    Then how about fWAR which uses UZR.

    Dodgers - 41.5 fWAR
    Mets - 30.2 fWAR

    He was clearly better with the Dodgers, it's not just his defense. He was such a better hitter with the Dodgers that his value was so much higher.

    Runs Created
    Dodgers - 690 - 3017 PA
    Mets - 669 - 3941 PA



    WARP
    Dodgers - 34.1
    Mets - 30.5

    No matter how you slice it, he was better as a Dodger, and in less time.

    I still say Mets because of time spent, but he was clearly better as a Dodger.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 01-07-2013 at 03:46 PM.

  14. #179
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    I think the big moment argument is weird, and obviously his ones as a met are going to be more memorable because they were the most recent.

  15. #180
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    As great as he was as a Dodger, he became the entire FACE of the New York Mets organization. In today's world, similar in equivalent to Jeremy Lin with the Knicks last year, in terms of there emergence and vastly growing popularity
    http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/oscar-taveras
    ~ Oscar Taveras ~ The next Phenom

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