Offensive Rookie of the Year: Luck or RG3?

[NormSizedMidget]

It can be disputed easily, because they werent very good and the Colts are honestly lucky that we played a bunch of sub .500 teams in the middle of the season or else the D would have been exoposed like it was against NE, HOU, NYJ. The Chiefs ran for over 300 yards on us.

I know your probably not reading my posts at this point, or maybe you just dont comprehend what im trying to tell you, but i can assure you one thing. Ive watched every Colts game since 2001, therefor ive seen every game this season. The Colts defense is not good. They are well below average in almost every area of the game and do not have the players to fit the 3-4 style of defense Pagano wants to play. We have CB's that were 4th and 5th string starting and playing nickel on our team. (Cassius Vaughn, Darius Butler) Our defensive line is a bunch of awful players other than Cory Redding (Antonio Johnson, Clifton Geathers). Dwight Freeney is playing out of position and his stats, rather his lack thereof, are actually a good reflection of his play this year. Our starting ILB is injured and Pat Angerer, who is still recovering from a broken foot, is replacing him, with a guy that was a 3rd string LB on the Eagles splitting time with him (Moise Fokou)

This defense is not a good defense. Your view and stinginess pertaining to one stat, that you seem to have fallen in love with, is coming through. There are so many reasons why this group has been pretty bad this year.

It's all about stats man. Nothing else matters.

[ombada]

I'm not saying it's a good defense by any means. I'm saying it performed well above what one would expect in most of the wins for a defense that is generally considered horrible/terrible.

I don't care if they are a good or bad defense, but fact of the matter is they HAVE PERFORMED WELL ABOVE AVERAGE PPG WISE in most of the wins for the Colts and are just as big of a reason the Colts have won those games as ANYTHING ELSE.

There's absolutely nothing you can say to convince me that the defense holding the opponent to 18 ppg in those games didn't exponentially increase the Colt's chances of winning as opposed to if they had given up like 25 points per game in those games or something like that. Use some logic man. Anytime your defense can hold a team to 20 or below, you have a damn good chance of winning unless you are just a horrible inept offense.

See post above, you are horrendously wrong.

[ombada]

It's all about stats man. Nothing else matters.

apparently its all about the STAT... just the one... that describes perfectly the Colts defense.

Its ok though, i posted some irrefutable evidence using stats.

and BTW Shipley has been doing pretty well. Hes playing out of position though, I would really like to see him in one of the G spots. Maybe he could take Joe Reitz's place. Just too many injuries to have him anywhere else right now.

[FortDetroit]

See post above, you are horrendously wrong.

18.5 PPG overall in wins. Holding teams to 20, 20, 13, 13, 13, 13, and 10 in 7 of their 10 wins. If only my team was so lucky to get "horrible" defensive play to the tune of that. Let me guess, the defensive play was horrible in those games but Luck kept the other team out of the endzone?

[ombada]

18.5 PPG overall in wins. Holding teams to 20, 20, 13, 13, 13, 13, and 10 in 7 of their 10 wins. If only my team was so lucky to get "horrible" defensive play to the tune of that. Let me guess, the defensive play was horrible in those games but Luck kept the other team out of the endzone?

I really hate quoting myself, but i honestly cant believe how thick you are being... the only explanation i can think of is that you arent reading my posts...

you are seriously not listening to me at all.

RG3 has a running game and an offensive line worth a damn. thats why his teams production is so much higher.

The Colts have a one dimensional offense and some of the worst protection by an offensive line in the NFL (40 sacks 4th in the NFL, 97 hits 1st in the NFL). 9 players have been fined for a total of over 120,000 dollars for hits on Luck. This does not account for how many times hes been hurried. He is not the reason for the offensive ineptitude or low scoring in games. You should see him running out of the pocket to make passes, or being pulled down as he completes a 15 yard pass down field. He is Literally putting up amazing game winning performances.

The defense lets opposing offenses into scoring position. Between 18 and 22 there are 5 teams tied for for allowing 3.3 red zone opportunities to opposing teams. The Colts are sitting at 20th.

Do you understand this? we have been playing crappy offenses!

13 points allowed to the Browns - Red zone scoring % 42.11 - 30th in the NFL

13 points allowed to the Titans - Red zone scoring % 50.00 - 23rd in the NFL

10 points allowed to the Jaguars - Red zone scoring % 42.86 - 28th in the NFL

13 points allowed to the Bills - Red zone scoring % 47.83 - 25th in the NFL

10 points allowed to the Chiefs - Red zone scoring % 28.57 - 32nd in the NFL




Our defense sucks... those offenses just happen to suck worse than our defense. Thats about as simple as i can spell it out for you.

Listen, your team is not my team. Your teams schedule is not my teams schedule. We did not play all the same teams. There is a difference between them. You had to play GB, Minny, and Chicago twice each. They are all playing well. We got to play Ten and JAX twice each. They are horrible. WE played the Chiefs, Bills, Dolphins and Browns who all have losing records. Where are you not making this connection?

[FortDetroit]

you are seriously not listening to me at all.

RG3 has a running game and an offensive line worth a damn. thats why his teams production is so much higher.

The Colts have a one dimensional offense and some of the worst protection by an offensive line in the NFL (40 sacks 4th in the NFL, 97 hits 1st in the NFL). 9 players have been fined for a total of over 120,000 dollars for hits on Luck. This does not account for how many times hes been hurried. He is not the reason for the offensive ineptitude or low scoring in games. You should see him running out of the pocket to make passes, or being pulled down as he completes a 15 yard pass down field. He is Literally putting up amazing game winning performances.

The defense lets opposing offenses into scoring position. Between 18 and 22 there are 5 teams tied for for allowing 3.3 red zone opportunities to opposing teams. The Colts are sitting at 20th.

Do you understand this? we have been playing crappy offenses!

13 points allowed to the Browns - Red zone scoring % 42.11 - 30th in the NFL

13 points allowed to the Titans - Red zone scoring % 50.00 - 23rd in the NFL

10 points allowed to the Jaguars - Red zone scoring % 42.86 - 28th in the NFL

13 points allowed to the Bills - Red zone scoring % 47.83 - 25th in the NFL

10 points allowed to the Chiefs - Red zone scoring % 28.57 - 32nd in the NFL




Our defense sucks... those offenses just happen to suck worse than our defense. Thats about as simple as i can spell it out for you.

Uh ok? Not sure what point that proves. I never said they weren't crappy offenses they were going against. That doesn't mean the defense performed badly in those games though. Performing badly in those games would mean allowing those crappy offensive teams to score....and they clearly didn't score.

13 points allowed to the Browns - average 19.5 ppg on the season
13 points allowed to the Titans - average 19.5 ppg
10 points allowed to the Jaguars - average 15.7 ppg
13 points allowed to the Bills - average 21.1 ppg
10 points allowed to the Chiefs - average 13.9 ppg

So you held EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEAMS well below their season average. In fact, the D held them to an average of 6.14 points BELOW their season average. NEARLY A FULL TD BELOW THEIR SEASON AVERAGES.

HOW THE F IS THAT, as you put it, A BAD DEFENSIVE PERFORMANCE!!!? Holding those teams nearly a TD below their season average = a bad defensive performance now. WOW.

You wanna know what an actual bad defensive performance against a bad offensive team is? Giving up 44 points to the Titans (average 19.5 on the season) like the Lions did this season. Or giving up 23 points (average 18 on the season) to the Eagles like the Lions did this season. Yeah. That. That's a bad defensive performance against a bad offensive team. Not giving up like 13 points.....well below their season offensive averages. Jesus.

[FortDetroit]

I really hate quoting myself, but i honestly cant believe how thick you are being... the only explanation i can think of is that you arent reading my posts...



Listen, your team is not my team. Your teams schedule is not my teams schedule. We did not play all the same teams. There is a difference between them. You had to play GB, Minny, and Chicago twice each. They are all playing well. We got to play Ten and JAX twice each. They are horrible. WE played the Chiefs, Bills, Dolphins and Browns who all have losing records. Where are you not making this connection?

What does this have to do with anything? It doesn't change the fact that the Colt's defense not sucking *** in the wins has been just as important as Luck's play. If anything, bringing up all those crappy teams and offenses you have faced makes Luck's 55% completion percentage and last quarter squeak it out comeback wins even less impressive in my eyes......so i'm not exactly sure what your point is there.

[ombada]

Uh ok? Not sure what point that proves. I never said they weren't crappy offenses they were going against. That doesn't mean the defense performed badly in those games though. Performing badly in those games would mean allowing those crappy offensive teams to score....and they clearly didn't score.



So you held EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEAMS well below their season average. In fact, the D held them to an average of 6.14 points BELOW their season average. NEARLY A FULL TD BELOW THEIR SEASON AVERAGES.

HOW THE F IS THAT, as you put it, A BAD DEFENSIVE PERFORMANCE!!!? Holding those teams nearly a TD below their season average = a bad defensive performance now. WOW.

You wanna know what an actual bad defensive performance against a bad offensive team is? Giving up 44 points to the Titans (average 19.5 on the season) like the Lions did this season. Or giving up 23 points (average 18 on the season) to the Eagles like the Lions did this season. Yeah. That. That's a bad defensive performance against a bad offensive team. Not giving up like 13 points.....well below their season offensive averages. Jesus.

They were in a position to score. It was those teams ineptitude to score TD's in the red zone that caused them to score below their averages. They had plenty of opportunities.

Chicago - 23.3 avg scored 41 on us.

Jacksonville - 15.7 avg scored 22 on us

New York Jets - 18.1 avg scored 35 on us

New England - 35.3 avg scored 59 on us

Detroit - 23.2 avg scored 33 on us

What do you want man? this is the nature of the NFL. Some games are up and some are down. Any teams fan can do what you did and try to use it as a stat.

You cant say that a teams defense is good when other teams are ramping up yardage on them and consistently getting into scoring position and just coming away with FG's becuase they cant convert their redzone opportunities.

im sorry dude, but im done with this. you are thinking too narrowly to understand right now how there are many factors to the outcome of a game. In those games we got little assistance from the defenses, more often then not we got a lot of assistance from opposing teams not being able to run up the score on us and keeping us in striking distance.

You seem to be very sour over your teams defense, and for some reason think i dont appreciate a defense that you think has been good, but has played against sub .500 teams badly. Well youre wrong. You obviously couldnt have watched more than the three national games the Colts played in maximum.


In response to your above post, i already mentioned how bad our line and RB play is. Luck is not the only factor as far as offensive production and passing efficiency are concerned. Not only that but him playing against teams that are bad offensively in the red zone, as i stated, has nothing to do with those teams defensive make-up. You do not have a point. I wouldnt bring up your team, if you would stop bringing them up, which you cant seem to do. There is no fair comparison for the two teams in terms of schedule and teams played against. That might be why the Colts are a 10 win team and the Lions are not.

As far as im concerned this conversation is over.

[FortDetroit]

I've now learned that when a defense collectively holds 5 opponents nearly a TD below their season average it's considered a bad defensive performance and when a QB squeaks out wins by a TD or less against same said bad teams that the defense held to like 12 points it's considered an amazing and great performance by the QB.

And for the record Ombada, for the last time I DON'T think the Colt's defense is good. I'm saying they performed well enough to win most of the games the Colt's won in and kept the game well within reach for Luck and the Colt's offense....despite you saying they played horribly. Luck typically was not forced to have to score a lot of points in his wins. THAT"S ALL I'M SAYING. The same applies to Wilson as well, in fact, even more so obviously because he has an elite defense.

[bigmac8675]

Rg3

[ombada]

I've now learned that when a defense collectively holds 5 opponents nearly a TD below their season average it's considered a bad defensive performance and when a QB squeaks out wins by a TD or less against same said bad teams that the defense held to like 12 points it's considered an amazing and great performance by the QB.

And for the record Ombada, for the last time I DON'T think the Colt's defense is good. I'm saying they performed well enough to win most of the games the Colt's won in and kept the game well within reach for Luck and the Colt's offense....despite you saying they played horribly. Luck typically was not forced to have to score a lot of points in his wins. THAT"S ALL I'M SAYING. The same applies to Wilson as well, in fact, even more so obviously because he has an elite defense.

I woke up fresh and decided to respond to this against my better judgement.

Bold 1 pt. 1 - those teams are all in the bottom of the league in PPG (and red zone offense). from 23rd (Cleveland) overall down to 32nd overall (KC). They are the teams most prone to having bad offensive games. BTW, we held KC to their average (13) not a TD below.

Bold 1 pt. 2 - If you look at one stat... just the PPG stat, the defense had amazing games. Sadly games are played and things dont always show in the stats. Its too bad, because i would love to have the same simplistic view. Fact of the matter is the Colts are a middle of the road offensive PPG team. We average 21.9 (18th overall) and are usually hitting that average, and winning games, within the last 2 drives of the game. In order for teams to have a winning record, therefor win games, the other team usually has to score below their average. Most of the time, when teams lose, they score below their average. In fact the Colts scored below their average in 3 of their 5 losses. The two other losses were blowouts in which we lost by 20+ points. So stating that a team scored less points than their average in a loss is nothing mystical. Its not a telling stat, it doesnt describe how well the opposing defense played, as much as it does how the offense played. especially when the defense that was being played against lets up a ton of yardage in those wins and shows that it lets teams with good offenses score above their average, even in wins IE: Ten scoring 23 but averaging 19.5 in losing to the Colts, Detroit scoring 33 but averaging 23.2 in losing to the Colts and two other Colts wins in which the team scored just marginally better than their PPG average.

To sum up what im trying to say, your stat is normal for just about every team in the league. Show me a team that is drastically different. Show me a team that lets opponents score well above their average and still consistently wins games. Show me a team that scores below their average and consistently wins games. Please... i have all the time in the world.

Bold #2 - you have to watch the games. I know you have barely seen the Colts play and are being a stats jockey, albeit with only one stat, but get the Coaches tape, go back and watch some of the wins and losses and then get back to me.

Bold #3 - No **** Sherlock. However in the first win against the titans he had to lead 2 TD drives in the 4th quarter. In the second win against the Titans the offense had to come back from a 13 point half time deficit. In the game against the lions he lead 2 TD drives in less than 2 minutes. In the game against GB the offense had to come back from an 18 point half time deficit.

None of those games were in striking distance.

Or how about when the Vikings scored 2 late TD's to even the score at 20. The defense performed really well there.

Or when they let miami tie the score in the second half?

Or when they let the worst offense in the NFL (KC) score a TD and FG in the 3rd quarter to even the score.

Luck has 7 game winning drives. That is tied for the all time record and sets the rookie record. Why hasnt another QB done that? It couldnt have anything to do with the fact that he is carrying the offense and digging us out of holes we are being put in by the defense, though... cause that would be ridiculous.

Luck puts us in striking distance, he wills an offense that has everything going against it except for above average WR play. He drives early and scores, then the defense lets teams back into the game when they get comfortable with the lead. They were only able to perform well in about 3 games against teams in the bottom of the league on offense in the second halves with the lead.

You dont have to agree with me. at this point, i dont want you to. But please, for the love of orange soda, go back and watch the games before arguing that our defense has 'kept Luck in games.'

[mattcribbin]

Look at the Redskins stats and see all the points they've given up. That's what a crappy defense does. Points given up is the most important, dare I say, only important defensive stat. Thus RGIII has had to score more, thus making him have to carry his team more. Thus making him more important. With the Colts weak opponents and few points they've given up, they could have had Ryan Fitzpatrick or someone like that and still won 8 or 9 games.

[ombada]

Look at the Redskins stats and see all the points they've given up. That's what a crappy defense does. Points given up is the most important, dare I say, only important defensive stat. Thus RGIII has had to score more, thus making him have to carry his team more. Thus making him more important. With the Colts weak opponents and few points they've given up, they could have had Ryan Fitzpatrick or someone like that and still won 8 or 9 games.

This is straight up one of the most ignorant things ive ever had the displeasure of reading.

Also the Redskins and colts allow the same amount of PPG on defense on the year at 24.7 so you obviously have no idea what your talking about.

[FWBrodie]

Luck is a turnover machine.

[NormSizedMidget]

Luck is a turnover machine.

So was Peyton Manning his first year.