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View Poll Results: Are we better at 2B in 2013?

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49. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, we are now better.

    34 69.39%
  • It is a wash.

    13 26.53%
  • No, we are now worse.

    2 4.08%
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  1. #1
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    Have we really upgraded at 2B?

    When I think we replaced Kelly Johnson with either Maicer Izturis or Emilio Bonifacio I immediately think we have upgraded. After looking at the numbers I am not so sure.

    The numbers most often quoted in this forum I believe are OPS, wOBA and wRC+. When we compare those stats from last year this is what we get.

    Johnson .678OPS, .299wOBA 86 wRC+
    Izturis .635OPS, .287wOBA 82 wRC+
    Bonifacio.646OPS, .290wOBA 79 wRC+

    in 2011
    Johnson .717 .315 & 92
    Izturis .722 .318 & 102
    Bonifacio.758 .335 & 109

    in 2010
    Johnson .866 .378 & 129
    Izturis .684 .307 & 92
    Bonifacio.648 .292 & 75

    Johnson turns 31 next year, Izturis 33 and Bonifacio 28. So we can't expect Johnson or Izturis to improve much, Bonifacio is the only one who is still in his prime hitting years.

    Defensively, Izturis gets the edge as he has a positve defensive metric according to FG over his career. Johnson is very close to 0.0 and Bonifacio is in the negative.

    What I see is, Izturis starts over Bonifacio and we have had almost a wash at starting 2B. Bonifacio comes in off the bench to spell guys and pinch run which will be a great improvement over Vizquel. But overall, it is very close to a wash.

  2. #2
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    I have no idea what most of those numbers mean....what I do know that is the two guys we brought in to replace Kelly Johnson should be able to replace his offense, while providing more tools (speed!) for the lineup, as well as better defence.

  3. #3
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    Without question better - but I hate Kelly Johnson so it's possible there's some bias in my post

    Gibbons reaction to the Adam Lind trade

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by heusy_79 View Post
    I have no idea what most of those numbers mean....what I do know that is the two guys we brought in to replace Kelly Johnson should be able to replace his offense, while providing more tools (speed!) for the lineup, as well as better defence.
    I voted wash.

    Bonifacio certainly has a lot of speed, far more than Johnson. Defensively, Johnson is better than Bonifacio, and he hits far more HR's. I think you give up the long ball and a little defense for more speed with Bonifacio, making it close to a tie.

    Izturis is better defensively, about the same speed, and less HR's. Another wash. Just how I see it.

  5. #5
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    i think so but not by much
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #6
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    You forget those two also hit in pitchers parks while KJ was batting in one of the best hitters parks in the league (especially for a hitter of his type)

    You put KJ in either of the other two parks and his numbers are similar/worse but without the speed, or ability to play multiple positions.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_jon View Post
    You forget those two also hit in pitchers parks while KJ was batting in one of the best hitters parks in the league (especially for a hitter of his type)

    You put KJ in either of the other two parks and his numbers are similar/worse but without the speed, or ability to play multiple positions.
    Isn't wRC+ park and league adjusted?

    Either way, I vote a wash. As mentioned, KJ was a rally killer with his strikeouts. Similarly, he started off very hot in April and May, hitting the majority of his homeruns. After he cooled off, he was terrible. Take away his hot start and his numbers would appear much worse.

  8. #8
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    Another thing is that defensive metrics generally suck cack when determining the defensive value of players who switch around a lot (ie. Bonifacio and Izturis)

  9. #9
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    I think we upgraded over the 2012 version of KJ. He was great in 2010, and if he plays like that he has the highest ceiling of the 3....however, he hasn't played anything close to that the past 2 years, so I wouldn't have bet on him turning it around.

    To be honest, I actually hope we trade Rasmus and Happ in a package with another couple prospects for another starter. Then play Bonifacio in CF and sign Marco Scutaro to be our starting 2B.

    If Bonifacio fails at the plate, you simply move him to the bench when Gose is deemed ready to start in CF.

  10. #10
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    Probably a bit of a wash, but strikeouts were a huge issue with the team last year and KJ was a big part of that. LHP just ate us up with KJ at the top of the order so regularly. I'll consider it an upgrade, but not because of talent, more because of fit.

  11. #11
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    I voted better, but not by much. I think the new players address the team's needs better than what KJ provided. I won't miss the strikeouts, that's for sure.
    Blue Jays Ace Todd Redmond

  12. #12
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    We need a 2B to play solid defence, get on base and spray some hits around. That is not Kelly Johnson. For this line-up, it's an upgrade.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly gruber View Post
    we need a 2b to play solid defence, get on base and spray some hits around. That is not kelly johnson. For this line-up, it's an upgrade.
    +1

    Oh, and the speed is important too as a #9 hitter, to be that "2nd leadoff hitter". At least with Bonifacio, you can play small ball. With KJ you can't play small ball, "get on base" ball, or swing for the fences.
    Last edited by jaysfan4ever; 11-28-2012 at 03:36 PM.

  14. #14
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    I suppose it depends what you would prefer.
    Kelly Johnson: power potential
    +
    Vasquel: veteran presence and good D

    Or

    Bonifacio: Speed. Basically a Davis who plays IF
    +
    Izturs: league average everything.


    IMO, it's an upgrade because with good management the new guys have more versatility.
    An upgrade is still in order, but Bonifacio > Johnson as far as role players/hole fillers go.
    Last edited by ChongInc.; 11-28-2012 at 03:27 PM.

    Things will always work out in the end, but if you want them to turn out a certain way... You need to make it happen.

  15. #15
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    I think a lot of people will be surprised at how much better 2B will be this next year.

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