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Thread: Holmgren/Newton

  1. #46
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    First link includes numerous "Cowboys offense goes three and out, other team scores Romo leads a TD drive. Game ends Cowboys lose," type of posts. Glad he can keep it close and at least make an effort.

    Second link, he has impressive stats in fourth, 44TDs an 18INTs in the fourth with a 102.x passer rating. Cool glad you can get good stats, doesn't really address the situations of the games.

    The third link is probably the best argument for Romo, games he came back and won in the last quarter. I think what you failed to read in my post was that I said in a big game and important game.

    I am not saying that Romo sucks or is near te bottom of QBs in the league, but I do think Cam has a bigger upside and is younger. Romo is older and fails to come through when we need him. Cam obviously isn't available. I am saying that I would love for us to build our OL and get a QB in the next couple of years (not this year).

    When Romo completes that pass to Miles Austin against the Giants to send us to the play-offs for example, let me know. When he gets back to the play-offs and does something, let me know. Til then I suppose I'll let you know when he has multiple INT, multiple pick six games and continues to miss open receivers and otherwise make mistakes at crucial moments in big games. Unfortunately there probably won't e any more big games this season aside from the Redskins game because they will all likely be meaningless games.

    I guess I just get tired of certain members constantly posting juvenile, often derogatory posts when Romo is questioned or criticized. The cheerleading gets a bit annoying and frustrating. I like you guys, I am sure want to see the Cowboys doing well, winning games, going to the playoffs, etc., so when I see Romo consistently making mistakes year after year, sometimes being a primary reason we lose games I get frustrated. Then to come in here and see excuses for a Vet an people proclaiming his greatness is only more frustrating. Until Romo does something in a big, important game, he is who and what he is, a play incapable of taking his team to the next level. If you don't feel that way, I understand, but that is how I feel. Many others on this forum, in the general Cowboy fanbase, in the media, and among experts also share this feeling. The only person who can change this feeling is Romo and I think Romo knows this. I just wish more people would accept this and not proclaim his greatness until he does something worthy of it.
    Last edited by baazinakon; 11-30-2012 at 12:21 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by baazinakon View Post
    Milt, in looking at the thread I want to say thank you for actually contributing some good questions, a somewhat opposing viewpoint, and as a result a good discussion. This is how I wish more members of this forum acted and responded, as opposed to juvenile insults, blind support of players/coaches, no thought or logic put into posts, etc.
    I love good friendly arguing over sports. It's what makes it all fun. Just because people's views differ doesn't necessarily make one an "idiot". Perhaps uneducated.

    While I disagree personally that Cam would be the best direction for this organization, I respect the fact that you're entitled to your opinion about that. Even it's wrong.

    Cam has all the raw talent in the world. And perhaps he's going to continue to develop into a fantastic QB in the NFL. But right now, I'm not happy with his "field general" persona. I'm not sure how much he's a leader. I live in Atlanta and, as long as it's not interfering with the Cowboys, I pull for the hometown Falcons. Matt Ryan is just now coming into his own this year. Though the Falcons have been improving and reasonably successful team the last 4 years, it's mostly been a run-reliant offense with Michael Turner. But even through the first 4 years, I've been impressed with how a young QB has carried himself and been growing into a leadership role.

    Many, many people will argue this for eternity. It's an ageless battle about what you look for in someone. Take a guy like Cutler. Great talent...but generally perceived as a cry baby on the field. 50% of people will say who cares as long as he throws for 300 yards, 3 TDs, and maybe 1 INT, and gets the W. The other 50% will say he's a little baby and when things don't go his way, he's detrimental to the team.

    So this is ME and MY opinion. I always look for a QB that's consistent in performance but also attitude - with the ability to light a fire in a teammate's butt when necessary. And I wouldn't want to run the risk of putting the organization from the QB position in his hands. Is that a ringing endorsement for Romo?? No. I don't think Romo is the answer. But I don't think that we should put our eggs in the Cam basket. For the record, I don't really know who I would endorse of any of the guys (outside the usual unavailable suspects like Brady, Rogers, Brees, Peyton, etc).

    Also for the record, I'd be all for a Holmgren hiring. I don't think it's 100% fair to Garrett. But at the same time, Garrett is relatively new to Head Coaching...but he's not new to the Cowboys. He's been running this scheme and offense for YEARS. If he'd only been with the team for 1 1/2 seasons, I'd think this was premature. But the offense especially is essentially HIS guys. Not a bunch of guys that was brought in with a previous regime. And he's largely underachieving with them. But they have their bright spots every now an then. Really what it comes down to for me is his game management. He's just not a Head Coach...he's an OC. And he's a quality one in my opinion. But the Head Coach thing just doesn't seem to fit him...certainly not a HC while simultaneously being an OC. So I'd like to see Holmgren come in. It's not like we've been overly competitive the last few years anyway. Try something new while the team still have some very talented players up and down the roster...just need to be molded a bit...and have better game management in the games they are leading or have a chance to take a lead in the end.

  3. #48
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    how can anyone make the argument that Cam Newton is a clear choice, best option for this team, or a sure thing when he hasn't even played through his second season as of yet?

    This is where I differ from most people. Most people take a look at what they want to be a reality and avoid the other perspective. They choose to see what they want to see.

    Cam's total games played in the NFL < than most people's age in this forum (i would hope!).

    He's only played 27 games. How is that enough of an example to declare him a sure thing? Give the guy a little more time, at least outside of his sophomore year before people begin looking to him as a solution, whether hypothetically or figuratively.

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    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  4. #49
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    I personally would be open to anything that makes the Cowboys a legitimate superbowl contender...I don't feel that they are right now, but I believe that to be on our lack of coaching, not on Tony Romo or any of the players...I love Romo on this team, but as I have said in one or two other threads (mainly from Don's suggestion), that if the cowboys ever traded romo with the intent of getting a stud rookie in place and to better the team as a whole, then I would be on board...but, just understand what that means...we wouldn't be winning a superbowl in the next few years...

    ...as far as Cam Newton is concerned, he is a flashy kinda guy...he had a very good rookie season...but, IMO, the league has caught on to him...he will be solid in the future, but a running QB rarely gets into and wins a SB...not only that, since he likes to get those rushing TD's, he subjects himself to more punishment...in college, he was as big as the LBs that were hitting him and bigger than the DBs...in the nfl, not so much...sure, he threw for a lot of yards as a rookie, but that was more from need (behind constantly) than from being a good passer...I cannot see Cam as the answer in Dallas...

  5. #50
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    @Milt, I agree Cam's mental game and durability is somewhat suspect and that is cause for concern. I do think he will grow into a leadership role. In his last year at Auburn amidst all the controversy he was lauded for being a leader as handling things the best way possible for the team, as well as himself. Last year, albeit putting up great numbers, he handled himself well and always at least said the right things. This season is a little more questionable, however that could be from a lack of success as an individual and disappointment in the team too. Going forward I suppose we'll see what he becomes for the Panthers. Also, I agree with everything you said in you second paragraph regarding Holmgren.

    @thedon and Fred, I am happy to hear you would do anything to be clear cut contenders, I hope we all would. My thought when K read Cam might become available was that we have an opportunity to get a young QB with a lot of upside when we have an aging QB and not many quality QBs coming up for the next couple years it seems. I am very, very hesitant and nervous about drafting QBs as many are busts. Also as you guys pointed out, that means no real chance of making a run at a SB for a few more years. I was thinking with Cam you get a player who has shown he has an ability to throw and run in this league, and has had a couple of seasons to start to learn the NFL game, thus cutting down a bit of the learning curve we would have to deal with if we drafted a QB.

    I am not sure Cam is the answer, however I do feel that he is a great talent. He is still not much smaller than NFL LBs and he doesn't run as wildly as Vick for example. As I've described before his skill set could help mask our inabilities by our OL to pass and run block, and open the game up for Murray as well as our passing game. The play book also opens up with a player like Cam. We might not be a very good team right now, but I certainly think we are a better team, in a better situation as far as our organization goes than the Panthers and Cam could be much more successful here. Unfortunately we won't get to see what Cam could do here in Dallas. We will have to hope that in the next few years with a revamped OL (hopefully/needs to happen) Romo will be able to sit back and have a lot of time to make good decisions consistently, with the help if a true run game and we can make a run at a SB before Ware, Witten, and Romo all need to be replaced.

  6. #51
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    We need to address our Oline regardless. No matter how mobile a QB is a bad Oline can disrupt timing and cause TO's on offense. If you throw a QB into a huddle and say here is your offense; a bad Oline, WR's running wrong routes, miscommunication with WR's and finally when we do have a play in which the line blocks good the routes are ran to perfect execution here comes a drop ball. There is alot that goes on with the mindset of a QB outside of the pass rush that often gets over looked. With that being said now lets look at Romo vs Newton on handling all of these areas of concern that comes with being a QB and despite having more athleticism on his side Romo has the ability to overcome the other areas due to being mentally stronger. Romo can make a 23-0 deficit into a nail biter at the end of the game while Newton just folds.

  7. #52
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    You can't evaluate any qb without good OL play. Romo is not the problem
    on this team. Nonexistant running game, poor OL play, and a team wide
    lack of discipline (penalties, route running, etc.)
    Name ANY other successful QB in the nfl that does not have at least 2 out of
    3. WE HAVE NONE !!! The Giants won last year ranking last in rushing, but excellant pass protection, and excellant team discipline.
    you can put any qb on this team (Cam, Brady, Rogers, Mannings) and they will do no better until other issues are addressed and fixed !!

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by baazinakon View Post
    I am very, very hesitant and nervous about drafting QBs as many are busts.

    Also as you guys pointed out, that means no real chance of making a run at a SB for a few more years. I was thinking with Cam you get a player who has shown he has an ability to throw and run in this league, and has had a couple of seasons to start to learn the NFL game, thus cutting down a bit of the learning curve we would have to deal with if we drafted a QB.
    nice post, but here's where i disagree.

    1. The NFL is based on the draft. If you want your team to be successful you have to build through the draft. You're never going to find a franchise QB in free agency. The entire sport is built around the draft, so whether or not QB's are more bust prone to success prone is irrelevant as it's the only option you have to build a team.

    2. I've read the ideology "so many QB's are busts" before. And because of A than B has to happen. Like because it's come up black ten times on the roulette wheel it has to come up red on the next spin. We've got to stop with this incorrect way of thinking. Here's what i propose:

    (A). I'd like to know the actual statistics of QB longevity and success
    (B). Define "bust" and "success"
    (C). What are people using to compare when they say "most QB's are busts"? Remember that if we're comparing QB success rate to that of a 1st overall pick than our measures and parameters are flawed.
    (D). Who's at fault for not scouting enough to find the flaws in a QB that's a bust? Why can some teams find excellent players at any position while other teams can't?
    (E). Just because there's a chance of failure does not mean we should avoid it. It just means you need to take more precautions and plan accordingly.

    Example: You probably drive. There's a very likely chance of being in a car accident, God forbid, but that doesn't stop you from driving. What are the precautions that you take or have been implemented? Seat belts, speed limits, air bags, car design, emergency vehicles, car insurance, health insurance, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by cowboys4ever View Post
    You can't evaluate any qb without good OL play. Romo is not the problem
    on this team. Nonexistant running game, poor OL play, and a team wide
    lack of discipline (penalties, route running, etc.)
    Name ANY other successful QB in the nfl that does not have at least 2 out of
    3. WE HAVE NONE !!! The Giants won last year ranking last in rushing, but excellant pass protection, and excellant team discipline.
    you can put any qb on this team (Cam, Brady, Rogers, Mannings) and they will do no better until other issues are addressed and fixed !!
    1. How can you say Romo isn't a problem?
    - when Romo had many of things you're describing as the problem he still failed to get over the hump.
    - stats are very blinding when judging a QB's ability to win. It's easy to see great numbers and assume that = automatic success.

    Example: Goes right back to the above post. How many QB's have had success in college, great numbers and failed to do so in the NFL? Again numbers do not equal success.

    2. You discredit Eli Mannings ability to read defenses and command the team. Both are intangible elements not shown on a stat report. You have to look deeper than the surface.

    3. You last statement has so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions that I'm not even going to attempt to dissect it.
    Last edited by thedon01; 11-30-2012 at 01:40 PM.

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    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  9. #54
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    @Astros and Cowboys, you guys are right the OL needs to be fixed and I said regardless if we could land Cam or not the OL needs to be overhauled. You are also comparing a Vet to a guy who hasn't even played two seasons, only had one training camp, and is on a crappy team/organization. I do think Cam may have issues dealing with certain things mentally, however I don't think he is necessarily weaker than Romo, Romo just has that gun slinger I am going to throw it and hope for the best mentality for better and worse. I could argue that Romo is mentally weaker because he is unable to change his style of play.

    As I've said before if used properly Cam can help alleviate te pressure on the OL which opens our run game and passing game, thus making the offense better. TheDon addresses Romo having all these things in place albeit earlier in his career and was unable to be successful.
    Last edited by baazinakon; 11-30-2012 at 01:57 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedon01 View Post
    nice post, but here's where i disagree.

    1. The NFL is based on the draft. If you want your team to be successful you have to build through the draft. You're never going to find a franchise QB in free agency. The entire sport is built around the draft, so whether or not QB's are more bust prone to success prone is irrelevant as it's the only option you have to build a team.

    2. I've read the ideology "so many QB's are busts" before. And because of A than B has to happen. Like because it's come up black ten times on the roulette wheel it has to come up red on the next spin. We've got to stop with this incorrect way of thinking. Here's what i propose:

    (A). I'd like to know the actual statistics of QB longevity and success
    (B). Define "bust" and "success"
    (C). What are people using to compare when they say "most QB's are busts"? Remember that if we're comparing QB success rate to that of a 1st overall pick than our measures and parameters are flawed.
    (D). Who's at fault for not scouting enough to find the flaws in a QB that's a bust? Why can some teams find excellent players at any position while other teams can't?
    (E). Just because there's a chance of failure does not mean we should avoid it. It just means you need to take more precautions and plan accordingly.

    Example: You probably drive. There's a very likely chance of being in a car accident, God forbid, but that doesn't stop you from driving. What are the precautions that you take or have been implemented? Seat belts, speed limits, air bags, car design, emergency vehicles, car insurance, health insurance, etc.




    1. How can you say Romo isn't a problem?
    - when Romo had many of things you're describing as the problem he still failed to get over the hump.
    - stats are very blinding when judging a QB's ability to win. It's easy to see great numbers and assume that = automatic success.

    Example: Goes right back to the above post. How many QB's have had success in college, great numbers and failed to do so in the NFL? Again numbers do not equal success.

    2. You discredit Eli Mannings ability to read defenses and command the team. Both are intangible elements not shown on a stat report. You have to look deeper than the surface.

    3. You last statement has so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions that I'm not even going to attempt to dissect it.
    I know the NFL is significantly draft based, hence why JJ has made some mistakes treating it like baseball or NBA in years past. That said I view Cam as young enough to basically be a draft pick. Doesn't make complete sense but he is still a second year player with a lot of upside who has shown he can do some great things at the NFL level. Typically you are right and you don't get franchise players via trade, however if Cam became available I think this situation would have been the exception.

    Not that all are busts but teams are set back years if they select the wrong player in the first round for QB. That scares me, as the Cowboys really can't afford to blow a first rounder. Look at Jacksonville with Gabbert. They may be blowing another pick on a QB and there aren't even any franchise QBs in the draft this year in my opinion. The Cowboys' own carrousel of QBs between Aikman and Romo also comes to mind. The draft is where we will have to address our need for a QB in the coming years and I pray that we select the right player.

    Someone in the NFL section of the forum did some research and a list of QBs broken down by draft pick and success. I'll check and see if I can find it and will post it here. I think his criteria was 3,500yards, 30TDs and some other prerequisites to determine success.

    The second part of your post, I obviously agree with.
    Last edited by baazinakon; 11-30-2012 at 02:11 PM.

  11. #56
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    when romo had a decent running game and protection was early in his career. small school, undrafted qb I would think needs some time to adjust to the nfl. anyways we are talking about 32 yr old romo, not 27 yr old romo.

    I do not discredit eli manning at all, I believe he is top 3 in the nfl, but my point is how good can he read defenses if he had no time to do so, and the giants committed 10+ penalties a game.

    I could care less about stats, but to be a winner I believe this team has many more issues to fix before qb even enters the discussion.

    Name me a qb that has all the intangibles you seek, and I will show you a team that has at least 2 out of the 3 things I mentioned above

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedon01 View Post
    nice post, but here's where i disagree.

    1. The NFL is based on the draft. If you want your team to be successful you have to build through the draft. You're never going to find a franchise QB in free agency. The entire sport is built around the draft, so whether or not QB's are more bust prone to success prone is irrelevant as it's the only option you have to build a team.
    Never say never my friend.

    Saints: Drew Brees
    Broncos: Payton Manning (While he is on the downslope of his playing career he is still a franchise QB capable of winning the broncos a Superbowl)
    Cardinals or Rams: Kurt Warner brought both these terrible franchise to the Superbowl.

    While I agree with you that franchise QB are rarely found in FA it is however not impossible.

  13. #58
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    I'll concede and say i over spoke with the word "never", but my overall point was that if you're looking for a franchise QB the odds are in favor of the draft over free agency.

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    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  14. #59
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    Agreed. Quick question are the type of person who believes you should build a solid team and then find a franchise quarterback or find the franchise quarterback and build around him?

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    that's a very good question and I have pro's and con's to both. With all honesty I've never really made a decisive choice one way or the other.

    Things to consider:
    1. How do you know what kind of team you have until you have your QB? Is he a mobile QB, a pocket passer, accuracy, etc. You have to give him the proper pieces to be successful.

    2. What happens if you come across a premier QB in your draft position, but don't have the necessary pieces available? Do you pass on him because the team isn't ready?

    I guess the more I think about it will depend entirely on the situation the team is in. Are they completely rebuilding, have the ability and precedent of drafting well, just need a piece or two to get over the hump, etc.

    I may lean more towards getting the QB first, but that will depend on the situation you're in because there's different ways to build a football team, and I'll be the first to say I don't know how to build a franchise, never worked a day of my life in the NFL!

    "
    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

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