Craig Biggio

[Bos_Sports4Life]

Why do people say Biggio is boderline for the hof? how is he not looked at as an absolute lock? Here's why he SHOULD be a lock IMO.
.
* From '91-2001 he had a line of .296, .390 OBP, .448 SLG, 124 OPS+.

* 32nd ALLTIME in Runs created

* Bill james ranked him as the 35th best player ALL TIME and as the 5th best 2nd basemen of ALL TIME (obviously not an up to date list, but obviously it cant be too old) and even compared his peak to griffey..

http://books.google.com/books?id=3uS...riffey&f=false


(Not to say James opinion is the end all to be all...But he is very well respected among Baseball.)



* Not a huge fan of counting stats, but for what its worth – he is the only player in history to have 3000 hits, 600 doubles, 400 stolen bases, and 250 home runs.

* Runs – Biggio is currently 15th on the all time list of runs scored in the majors. Again – the top 30 are in the Hall, except A-Rod and Jeter, and the usual suspects – Bonds and Rose.

So, like I said...I'd like to hear how he is "boerderline"? I just don't see it.

I also know people will be curious why I didn't put this in the HOF topic, But I wanted too talk strictly Biggio...But if a mod feels the need to move it I understand.

[Jeffy25]

I'm surprised he is so ignored in the PED discussion.


He'll get in though, he and Bagwell might both get in this year. They'll vote for him. But he is sort of borderline by WAR values.

Only 4 seasons over 5 rWAR (one over 9), and 62 rWAR overall isn't that impressive. He didn't carry much power, but enough, and he was on base enough.

But a lot of his value is in his longevity. That's okay. He'll get in, and deserves to.

[SenorGato]

I'm surprised a whole bunch of people are ignored in the PED discussion, which isn't a discussion anyway (it's a witch hunt). Count me amongst the people who question Nolan Ryan being explained away solely on genetics and hard work. OTOH, that's me playing into the witch hunt so....yah.

Slam dunk HOF and arguably the most underrated player in the 90's, though his teammate Bagwell is also in that conversation.

[Bos_Sports4Life]

I'm surprised he is so ignored in the PED discussion.

IMO you can't throw guys in with the ped users, without some sort of legit evidence...just not fair imo.

He'll get in though, he and Bagwell might both get in this year. They'll vote for him. But he is sort of borderline by WAR values.

I think WAR undervalues biggio. Now, I didn't watch him on a consistant basis but if my memory serves correctly he was a very good fielder (b4 he aged obviously) yet his defensive metricts dont show this.

Also like I said..hes 44th all time in oWAR.

Only 4 seasons over 5 rWAR (one over 9), and 62 rWAR overall isn't that impressive. He didn't carry much power, but enough, and he was on base enough.

20x HR's 8 times, 40x Doubles 7 times. (30x doubles 14 times). Overall thats pretty good power from a 2nd basemen.

But a lot of his value is in his longevity. That's okay. He'll get in, and deserves to.

he had a 10 yr stretch of .296 avg, .390 OBP, .446 SLG while being recognized as an elite defensive player. So far Cano doesn't have ONE season of anything above a .381 OBP..Biggio had a DECADE of .390.

I think he's in even without his last few yrs.


I'd love to see where he ranks among 2b in RC+ and wOBA. Bill James must have a good reason to put him as the 35th best ever.

[SenorGato]

Keep in mind that he and Bagwell played in the Astrodome, one of the biggest pitcher's parks in the league, until 1999.

[Tkais9009]

I'm old school... 3000 hits and almost 300 hrs is good enough for me.

Let the crucifying begin lol

[Jeffy25]

IMO you can't throw guys in with the ped users, without some sort of legit evidence...just not fair imo.

It's def a witch hunt, so to speak

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-was-a-roider/

But there is no player that played in the 90's that is removed from this possibility.

Also like I said..hes 44th all time in oWAR.

A lot of that is from longevity fwiw

I'd love to see where he ranks among 2b in RC+ and wOBA. Bill James must have a good reason to put him as the 35th best ever.

4th in Runs Created among all 2B all time, tied for 28th in wRC+ though (tied with Uggla)

10th in fWAR
12th in rWAR

Top 15 are usually hall of fame worthy

[Bos_Sports4Life]

A lot of that is from longevity fwiw

From '89-'01 he accomplished 61.6 of his 72.5 (taking out his 1st season and final 6)..The vast majority of his oWAR was accomplished before the tailend.

[Benaforce]

The fact that he played at a high level at catcher>>2nd base>>outfield and back to
2nd base says a lot. He made no waves when the Astros asked him to move to the outfield to make room for Jeff Kent. I think when you consider his stats and add in the effort at which he played and his willingness to play where ever needed make a strong case for the HoF. Pitchers feared him at the plate not only because he was good at putting the ball in play but he had no fear of getting hit. I'm a biased because I grew up as an Astros fan during the Biggio years, but I think he's a lock.

"I get in that box, and I'm not thinking about moving because if I have to think about moving, I can't hit like I want to hit." - Craig Biggio in Baseball Turf War Focuses on Inner Part of Plate"

[MetsFanatic19]

He'll definitly get in. Most likely this year, too.

[abe_froman]

who said he's borderline? i've never heard anyone say anything but a certainty(except if they think he used)

[Rio40]

How about take the time frame of the first know PED user until the new ruled we implemented. Put an asterisk and the error and not any specific players.

Everyone who deserved it still gets in but gets noted as playing in the "steroid error".

[Bravo95]

'Roider or not, he was still a badass. One of the few rival players I respected enough not to boo or cuss, ha.

[SenorGato]

How about take the time frame of the first know PED user until the new ruled we implemented. Put an asterisk and the error and not any specific players.

Everyone who deserved it still gets in but gets noted as playing in the "steroid error".

Sounds like a good idea.

Maybe a Klan hood icon for the era before colored players were allowed to play.

A cancerous testicle for the dead ball era.

A giant hill icon next to guys who pitched back when the mound was higher.

A bruised body part for when pitchers were allowed to pitch inside without a warning being handed out because he's being mean.

Sort 'em all out, and knock 'em all down.

[bagwell368]

The fact that he played at a high level at catcher>>2nd base>>outfield and back to
2nd base says a lot. He made no waves when the Astros asked him to move to the outfield to make room for Jeff Kent. I think when you consider his stats and add in the effort at which he played and his willingness to play where ever needed make a strong case for the HoF. Pitchers feared him at the plate not only because he was good at putting the ball in play but he had no fear of getting hit. I'm a biased because I grew up as an Astros fan during the Biggio years, but I think he's a lock.

"I get in that box, and I'm not thinking about moving because if I have to think about moving, I can't hit like I want to hit." - Craig Biggio in Baseball Turf War Focuses on Inner Part of Plate"

That's one point I was going to make. He won a silver slugger as a catcher. 428 games at catcher, 363 in the OF, and 1989 at 2B.

He had a long decline phase, but his 8 year contiguous peak was pretty impressive.

Bill James got carried away with Biggio because he was a percentage player and helped James beat on the guys with good SLG but meh OBP skills. At the time of James's last abstract no way in hell Biggio was the #35 player of all time. Still, he's a HOF, and if I was making a 25 man all time roster, I'd have to think about him as as bench C/2B/OF/PH take a ball off the butt or arm sparkplug of a player to have.

As great as Biggio was, Bagwell was better.