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View Poll Results: If you had a vote, select who you would vote for (note: max of 10 votes per person)

Voters
293. You may not vote on this poll
  • Barry Bonds

    173 59.04%
  • Roger Clemens

    149 50.85%
  • Curt Schilling

    140 47.78%
  • Craig Biggio

    181 61.77%
  • Kenny Lofton

    40 13.65%
  • Sammy Sosa

    74 25.26%
  • Mike Piazza

    222 75.77%
  • Jack Morris

    54 18.43%
  • Jeff Bagwell

    162 55.29%
  • Lee Smith

    46 15.70%
  • Tim Raines

    80 27.30%
  • Alan Trammell

    58 19.80%
  • Edgar Martinez

    112 38.23%
  • Fred McGriff

    49 16.72%
  • Larry Walker

    83 28.33%
  • Mark McGwire

    80 27.30%
  • Don Mattingly

    75 25.60%
  • Dale Murphy

    35 11.95%
  • Rafael Palmerio

    38 12.97%
  • Bernie Williams

    53 18.09%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 376 to 390 of 442
  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    What's up Jeffy? To me, this is not an opinion at all. He's pretty clear hear. Just because they never enforced it, doesn't mean it was legal. They just never enforced this rule. I mean, why would he take the time to prepare this and send it out to all clubs if it's only an opinion? He wouldn't.

    What the hell, here it is.



    Commissioner Vincent's memorandum contained the following provisions:
    • The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.
    • In addition to any discipline this office may impose, a club may also take action under applicable provisions of and special covenants to the uniform player's contract. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
    • MLB recognizes that illegal drug use has become a national problem, and that some players and baseball personnel may fall victim to drugs. Baseball will not hesitate to permanently remove from the game those players and personnel who, despite our efforts to treat and rehabilitate, refuse to accept responsibility for the problem and continue to use illegal drugs. If any club covers up or otherwise fails to disclose to this office any information concerning drug use by a player, that club will be fined $250,000, the highest allowable amount under the Major League Agreement.
    • MLB believes that its testing program is the most effective means available to deter and detect drug use. For admitted or detected drug users, testing will be a component of that individual's after-care program for the balance of his or her professional baseball career.
    • This office will continue to search for positive and constructive methods of dealing with drug use. While baseball will attempt to treat and rehabilitate any player or personnel who falls victim to a drug problem, we will not hesitate to impose discipline, especially in those cases involving repeated offenses or refusals to participate in a recommended and appropriate course of treatment.
    • If any club has a question about any aspect of the drug use program, please contact Louis Melendez, Associate Counsel, Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee.

    So we should punish those that took part in something where there were no punishments put into place? If there are no penalities to be enforced, there are no rules.

    He can write whatever he wants. But until there is action to be presented behind it, there are no rules for it.

    Otherwise, it wouldn't have taken 13 years to create action to this.

    To quote Bill James

    Performance-enhancing drugs were not prohibited in baseball prior to the 2002 Joint Drug Program. Fay Vincent’s 1991 memo and other commissioner proclamations were no more binding than a bill that is passed by Congress, but vetoed by the President. Arbitrators would not uphold the memo as the law of baseball. It was not until 2002 that the players and owners agreed to a testing and enforcement program. A second positive test was a punishable offense in 2004, but there was no sanction for first-time offenses until 2005.
    If drug testing only required an act of the Commissioner, then there would have been no need for contentious negotiations with the MLBPA.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 01-05-2013 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    So we should punish those that took part in something where there were no punishments put into place? If there are no penalities to be enforced, there are no rules.

    He can write whatever he wants. But until there is action to be presented behind it, there are no rules for it.

    Otherwise, it wouldn't have taken 13 years to create action to this.

    To quote Bill James
    In reality, no. There was no concrete penalty in place. So they have to get a free pass at that time.

    Penalties in place or not, if they used, they cheated. It can't even be argued. From my point of view, if a player used, and you don't have to get caught to be a user, they should not be in the HOF.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Metrics give a ton of value to those who participate and eat innings (or take a lot of plate appearances)


    But he simply wasn't a good enough pitcher.


    His career average is basically what Trevor Cahill produced last season, or more accurately, it's what Fausto Carmona (now Roberto Hernandez) did in 2010.


    He just wasn't that good, his reputation far exceeds what he actually accomplished.

    He wasn't a strike out pitcher, walked way too many guys, carried a league average ERA, and for some reason was treated like this big game pitcher when he really wasn't. He had a historic game against Smoltz. And he is treated like he was this fantastic ace pitcher for decades. That he was the best pitcher of the 80's (he clearly wasn't).

    He ate innings, and there is value in that, but when you are league average at it, you aren't more than a Ryan Dempster.
    Call me when Ryan Dempster and Trevor Cahill average 241 innings over 14 seasons and are a huge part of 3 championship teams. Maybe I'll think they deserve to get honored in the Hall too.

    I acknowledge he wasn't Maddux or Clemens, and it's fine if people don't think he's Hall worthy, but the stuff about Morris being some replacement level pitcher who wasn't that good is just laughable.

    What I like about Morris is that he actually pitched with a win in mind. I'm not saying he pitched to the score. I'm saying his goal taking the mound was to keep his team in the game long enough to get the W. The mindset was different then. Now it's get your "quality start" in under 120 pitches, and get the hell out of there, lead or not. The W-L record, while imperfect, meant more back then.

    I have another question (actually I don't think you answered the first one)--if Morris left all of his games after 6 innings with a quality start and in line for a win, could his ERA+ be higher by not going further into the game? In other words, could a pitcher be penalized for trying to do more?

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by getfoul View Post
    Call me when Ryan Dempster and Trevor Cahill average 241 innings over 14 seasons and are a huge part of 3 championship teams. Maybe I'll think they deserve to get honored in the Hall too.
    When Morris pitched (77-94) the average starter went 6.31 innings per start and there were 4 man rotations

    Today, the average starter pitches 5.88 innings per start and sits in a 5 man rotation and there are even some 6 man rotations

    Over 50 pitchers reached 200 innings each season
    and a total of 843 from 77-93 not including 81 and 94 (both strike short seasons)
    In the 18 seasons since 94 only 740 have done it and in less seasons.


    The difference is that today, nobody is given an opportunity to pitch 245 innings, it's only happened 4 times since 08 (Verlander, Felix, Halladay, Shields) and each of them when they did it pitched at elite levels, something Morris never did. He never had a season close to as good as any of their seasons.

    When Morris did reach 250 innings, he wasn't the only one doing it. For example, Ken Holtzman did it 6 times, Steve Carlton did it 12 times, Valenzula 6 times, the list goes on.


    He ate innings, at the league average rate performance wise. League average ERA, league average K/9, league average BB/9. All he was was an innings eater.


    His very best rWAR season was a 5.6, and that is his only season over a 5 rWAR

    a 5.6 rWAR seasons has been done exactly 264 times since 1977 (Morris' rookie season) and only twice did he have a top 10 rWAR season and never a top 5. He was not a good pitcher. He just ate innings.


    I acknowledge he wasn't Maddux or Clemens, and it's fine if people don't think he's Hall worthy, but the stuff about Morris being some replacement level pitcher who wasn't that good is just laughable.
    He performed at replacement level averages

    He had a 3.90 career ERA.
    The league average ERA from 77-94 it was 3.87
    He had a career ERA+ of 105, the league average was 100.

    He was basically a league average performer. His K/9, his BB/9, his HR/9 all of it. He was either league average or just barely above it. His value was that he ate innings and pitched nearly 4000 innings in his career. He was an accumulator if there ever was one.

    What I like about Morris is that he actually pitched with a win in mind. I'm not saying he pitched to the score. I'm saying his goal taking the mound was to keep his team in the game long enough to get the W. The mindset was different then. Now it's get your "quality start" in under 120 pitches, and get the hell out of there, lead or not. The W-L record, while imperfect, meant more back then.
    That's assuming that Morris actually had the right to tell his managers when he came out and when he didn't. Which he might have at the end of his career. But it's not necessarily up to him, and doesn't make him a hall of famer.

    I have another question (actually I don't think you answered the first one)--if Morris left all of his games after 6 innings with a quality start and in line for a win, could his ERA+ be higher by not going further into the game? In other words, could a pitcher be penalized for trying to do more?
    No. His career numbers were actually a little better in the 7th inning and later than prior.

    ERA by 3 inning stretch career
    1-3 - 3.94 ERA
    4-6 - 4.01 ERA
    7-9 - 3.59 ERA

    He actually performed better across the board in the 7th or later
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...reer&t=p#innng

    So no, he wouldn't have performed better, he would have been worse.




    Tell me if you think Dennis Martinez should be in the hall of fame. If you don't think he deserves, then Morris def doesn't belong.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 01-05-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    In reality, no. There was no concrete penalty in place. So they have to get a free pass at that time.

    Penalties in place or not, if they used, they cheated. It can't even be argued. From my point of view, if a player used, and you don't have to get caught to be a user, they should not be in the HOF.
    What are you going to do when you find out that there are current hall of famers that used?

    Canseco says we already have a few in there that he knows used.

    And some guys are being penalized that very well may never have used.


    You can't tell me who did and did not use, so it's pointless to try and penalize anyone. You will penalize the innocent, it's inevitable.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    What are you going to do when you find out that there are current hall of famers that used?

    Canseco says we already have a few in there that he knows used.

    And some guys are being penalized that very well may never have used.


    You can't tell me who did and did not use, so it's pointless to try and penalize anyone. You will penalize the innocent, it's inevitable.
    Some are obvious users. Some are not. And for the most part, the guys that are not obvious, were probably not going to get in anyway.

    You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who was definitely on it. Those are the ones that will be targeted. Not the ones that can't be figured out. All the voters need is a little common sense. No proof is needed at all. After all, not being caught does not me you were clean. Again....... common sense.

    Here are the common sense users appearing for the first time on ballot, that have a chance to get in. The other users have no shot anyway.

    Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Schilling, Biggio, Sosa

    Guys already on the ballot that are a no brainer for being users. Again, the other users have not shot either way.

    Bagwell, E Martinez, McGriff, L Walker, Mcgwire, Palmeiro.
    Last edited by thawv; 01-05-2013 at 07:10 PM.

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Some are obvious users. Some are not. And for the most part, the guys that are not obvious, were probably not going to get in anyway.

    You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who was definitely on it. Those are the ones that will be targeted. Not the ones that can't be figured out.
    Jeff Bagwell has repeatedly not gotten in because of exactly this.

    He has never been connected to any steroid use. But some voters choose to believe it's possible so they aren't letting him in.

    Skip Bayless in all his stupid glory says he wouldn't vote for Jim Thome because he believes he might have taken something (even though there isn't a shred of evidence) but would vote for Jeter because he doesn't believe he took anything. How the **** can he determine that? He can't!

    You have players that no one has a clue if they used or not and people are just randomly making their assumptions.

    It's well believed that Rickey Henderson did in fact use steroids. But he got in almost unanimously. Chances are, we already have some former users in, but we have no idea if they did or not.

    Roger Clemens is believed by a large majority of the population to have used because of a former trainer....a former trainer who is also a convicted felon. Clemens might not even get 50%, but it's what people CHOOSE to believe, right or not.

    People let their judgments get the best of them, it's why sabr-metrics has had a hard time breaking through over the last thirty years. People are too ignorant and stubborn to open their eyes to what might be.


    No one, not one single falible human being has a clue who did and did not use, and we can't just go around picking and choosing who we want to believe did or did not. Other than the one's that have admitted it (like McGwire) or the one's that we have proven test on (like Manny) you can't hold the rest out. Because we simply do not know. Bagwell is easily deserving statistically. Yet he is still not in because some voters believe it's possible that he used.

    It's going to happen. An innocent person will be left out of the hall because of incorrect suspicion, and a guilty person will glide in because he didn't play long ball in his career and is in because of other reasons (like speed, contact, walks, pitcher whatever). It's going to happen....if it hasn't already.


    The point is............you can't tell.....nobody can tell. Rickey Henderson is just as likely to have used as Roger Clemens, and none of the voters can tell the difference.

    Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Schilling, Biggio, Sosa
    How are Schilling and Biggio common sense first of all?

    You can't create that distinction.

    Bagwell, E Martinez, McGriff, L Walker, Mcgwire, Palmeiro.
    Bagwell, Martinez, and Walker all easily belong in, and McGwire, McGriff, and Palmerio are all borderline deserving with or without.

    The only person that you know for certain used in this group is McGwire. Bonds, Palmerio and Sosa you have a pretty good idea, and Clemens to an extent. The rest don't have anything in their careers that directly links them other than people assuming it or making judgments from their career numbers.


    The point................you have no clue, and you can't possibly have a clue. Hell they might have all used for all we know. Nobody on here knows, and none of the voters know. So how can anyone cherry pick. You think it's common sense, but it's not even close to common sense. You can't make judgments on a persons career in order to honor or dishonor them based on things you THINK you know about them. You can't do it. That's the problem with this whole steroid era. For one, it's massively blown up because this generation actively witnessed it. Future generations will be much more forgiving to it, it's not like this is the first tainted era of something awful that happened. And the other problem is that people think they know more about this era than they actually do. The fact is, we are all fairly ignorant to what actually happened and to what extent. We make assumptions, we play a 'common sense' game. But we don't actually know. I know of people that have vehemently argued that Ricky Henderson used, that Tim Raines used. But common sense wouldn't tell you that they did. And I have seen people vehemently argue that they never used. It isn't common sense. It's people's assumptions. And it's a shame that people will be honored....or not honored by what people THINK they know.....on a subject they have no way of knowing enough about.



    Eventually these guys will get in....because they deserve to be in. Not all of them, but every guy that you have listed above that has a career rWAR over 70 def will eventually get in. The Sosa's and McGwire's might fall short, but the Bagwells, Clemens, Bonds group will eventually find their way in.

  8. #383
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    Nicely put together Jeffy......as usual. To me, and I mean, to me, the guys I mentioned are clear users. This is not the court of law. This is the court of opinion. And voting is an opinion.

    These voters, for the most part, can see a user, just like you and I can. I choose to believe one thing. You choose to believe another. You are clearly a believer of needing proof. I am not. Peter Gammons once said that up to 2000 players used in the 90's. Who know? But I'll tell you this, it's not just the guy who got caught. That, you can bet your life on. Again, common sense has to eventually take over.

    There's an ex player that lives here in the Chicago that we know. He told us that just about everybody was using in the 90's. I'm sure he was exaggerating, but you get the point. Relief pitchers were famous for it.

    One of the biggest distributors was on the Orioles. For obvious reasons, he will remain nameless. He called him "a walking pharmaceutical center." His teammates and players on the road used to stop in to see him. He actually had a brief case with him in the locker room.

    Honestly, I don't care what people believe. I know what I know, and I know what I believe.

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Nicely put together Jeffy......as usual. To me, and I mean, to me, the guys I mentioned are clear users. This is not the court of law. This is the court of opinion. And voting is an opinion.
    I agree.


    These voters, for the most part, can see a user, just like you and I can. I choose to believe one thing. You choose to believe another. You are clearly a believer of needing proof. I am not. Peter Gammons once said that up to 2000 players used in the 90's. Who know? But I'll tell you this, it's not just the guy who got caught. That, you can bet your life on. Again, common sense has to eventually take over.
    Absolutely. But the problem is that you have people making their opinions in a matter that honors or dishonors these players. You are going to keep someone out that deserves to be in and didn't use because the public opinion could be incorrect. And you will vote people in that did use and we may never know they actually used. It's going to happen.

  10. #385
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    jayson stark's ballet:

    Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy.
    PSD Bulls Mock Trade Deadline
    Chicago Bulls


    Rose-Gordon-Deng-Anderson-Asik




  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnick5757 View Post
    jayson stark's ballet:

    Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy.
    That'll give the Nutcracker a run for its money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  12. #387
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    Will Morris get enough? I hope not.

    Will Kenny Lofton get enough support to remain on the ballot? I hope so.

  13. #388
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    I don't think anyone will get 75%, but I hope Morris and Raines get in. That should seal up the players from the era I grew up with, and then the Hall will have to decide how they're going to change the process over the next couple years.

    It's going to have to change if nobody is getting in and they have 20 players with 40-50% every year, and they can only vote for 10 per year.

    Truthfully, we care way too much about multimillionaires getting in a museum in upstate New York, including myself.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2009mvp View Post
    This is nuts, I count at least 11 guys who should be by my standards.

    Also, if anyone wants to explain why they voted Piazza but not Clemens/Bonds I'm all ears.
    I'm sure you understand that PED users are not getting the votes they need to get in. First, they cheated. Second, nobody really knows what their numbers would have been without using roids.

    PED's will not make a bad hitter an all star. It makes a player stronger. It allows them to play through pain. It adds longevity to a career.

    All of the players that have numbers worthy of the hall of fame on the ballot right now, were users. No question about it. So the numbers don't tell the whole truth.

    Who would have done what they did had he been clean? Would a player really have played that long? Do players really become an unbelievable player at a time when he should decline or even retire? They just can't be put in.
    Last edited by thawv; 01-07-2013 at 06:13 PM.

  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    I'm sure you understand that PED users are not getting the votes they need to get in. First, they cheated. Second, nobody really knows what their numbers would have been without using roids.

    PED's will not make a bad hitter an all star. It makes a player stronger. It allows them to play through pain. It adds longevity to a career.

    All of the players that have numbers worthy of the hall of fame on the ballot right now, were users. No question about it. So the numbers don't tell the whole truth.

    Who would have done what they did had he been clean? Would a player really have played that long? Do players really become an unbelievable player at a time when he should decline or even retire? They just can't be put in.
    I know I have parroted it plenty of times.

    But how do we know every player on the ballot used? Beyond that being highly cynical, it's also very likely not the case.

    You have plenty of players in the MLB that likely never took any PED's, and there is a high chance there are players on this ballot that never used as well.

    To say there is no question about it is.....well naive.

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