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View Poll Results: If you had a vote, select who you would vote for (note: max of 10 votes per person)

Voters
293. You may not vote on this poll
  • Barry Bonds

    173 59.04%
  • Roger Clemens

    149 50.85%
  • Curt Schilling

    140 47.78%
  • Craig Biggio

    181 61.77%
  • Kenny Lofton

    40 13.65%
  • Sammy Sosa

    74 25.26%
  • Mike Piazza

    222 75.77%
  • Jack Morris

    54 18.43%
  • Jeff Bagwell

    162 55.29%
  • Lee Smith

    46 15.70%
  • Tim Raines

    80 27.30%
  • Alan Trammell

    58 19.80%
  • Edgar Martinez

    112 38.23%
  • Fred McGriff

    49 16.72%
  • Larry Walker

    83 28.33%
  • Mark McGwire

    80 27.30%
  • Don Mattingly

    75 25.60%
  • Dale Murphy

    35 11.95%
  • Rafael Palmerio

    38 12.97%
  • Bernie Williams

    53 18.09%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 391 to 405 of 442
  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I know I have parroted it plenty of times.

    But how do we know every player on the ballot used? Beyond that being highly cynical, it's also very likely not the case.

    You have plenty of players in the MLB that likely never took any PED's, and there is a high chance there are players on this ballot that never used as well.

    To say there is no question about it is.....well naive.
    Not all the players on the ballot used. That's just crazy! I'm saying that all the players on the ballot with HOF numbers were users.

    Without looking at the guys who are not getting in regardless, because they are irrelevant, who do you think has HOF numbers that you think was 100% legit? And be honest bro. Think with an open mind.

    Of course there are many guys on the ballot who even myself think were clean. But they aren't getting in either way.

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Not all the players on the ballot used. That's just crazy! I'm saying that all the players on the ballot with HOF numbers were users.

    Without looking at the guys who are not getting in regardless, because they are irrelevant, who do you think has HOF numbers that you think was 100% legit? And be honest bro. Think with an open mind.

    Of course there are many guys on the ballot who even myself think were clean. But they aren't getting in either way.
    Edgar Martinez, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Kenny Lofton, Craig Biggio, and possibly guys like Schilling, Walker, Bagwell, Piazza etc as well might have been clean.

  3. #393
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    Thanks for the follow up. Here's what I think about those. Stepping out for a cigar and some vodka to watch Bama win! Have great night Jeffy!

    Edgar: User
    Raines: Not a HOF'er
    Trammell: Borderline HOF'er, probably clean
    Loften: Not a HOF'er
    Biggio: User
    Schilling: Borderline HOF'er, probably used
    Walker: User
    Bagwell: User
    Piazza: User

    The fact that we even have to think twice should tell us something.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Thanks for the follow up. Here's what I think about those. Stepping out for a cigar and some vodka to watch Bama win! Have great night Jeffy!

    Edgar: User
    Raines: Not a HOF'er
    Trammell: Borderline HOF'er, probably clean
    Loften: Not a HOF'er
    Biggio: User
    Schilling: Borderline HOF'er, probably used
    Walker: User
    Bagwell: User
    Piazza: User

    The fact that we even have to think twice should tell us something.
    I find picking and choosing as a user or not a user is far too difficult, but I will address the 'not a HOF'er' guys

    65 rWAR is the 'average hall of famer career rWAR' I'll rank each player by their rWAR and fWAR ranks for their position of all time.
    Raines - 70.6 fWAR, 12th all time, everyone ahead of him is in or is named Barry Bonds.

    Now of leftfielders that have played at least 1000 games in leftfield, Raines 66.2 rWAR is 5th best of all time, behind Bonds, Williams, Henderson, and Yaz and ahead of Al Simmons and Goose Goslin, Lou Brock and others.

    Sounds like an easy hall of famer to me.



    Trammell - 69.5 fWAR, 12th all time, everyone ahead of him except for Jeter and A-Rod are currently in.

    Of the shortstops with at least 1000 games played, Trammell's 67.1 rWAR is tied for 9th best of all time with Barry Larkin, behind all hall of famers and ahead of several more.


    Lofton - 66.2 fWAR, 13th all time. Only guys ahead of him not in are Jim Edmonds, Griffey, Andruw Jones, and Reggie Smith

    Where does Lofton's 64.9 rWAR rank among centerfielders? 7th, ahead of Duke Snider and behind only hall of famers like Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Ty Cobb. Only one ahead of him not in the hall of fame is Griffey.


    Schilling - Greatest K/BB ratio of all time, surprised?

    Schilling has a 76.9 rWAR, which is 26th best among all pitchers of all time. An easy hall of famer, by a moon shot. He is just behind Robin Roberts and Nolan Ryan.

    Where is he under fWAR? 86.1 fWAR, 17th best of all time between Pedro and Mussina.

    Everyone ahead of him on both lists is an easy hall of famer or is well on their way (like Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux)

    In a world where the top 70 pitchers of all time are in, I think a borderline top 20 pitcher of all time belongs in as well. He is a very easy choice.

    Know how many guys have struck out 3000 and not walked 1000?


    4

    Fergie Jenkins, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling, and his K/BB is better than them all.



    So the guys ahead of this group simply have not qualified yet for the hall of fame. Typically, each position elects the top 15 all time from their position. Rightfielders are the most represented, and third basemen are the least represented, but 15 is about the baseline. If you are a top 15 player at your position all time, at this point, you are deserving of being elected.

    And each of these guys is a top 15 player of all time from their position except Schilling who is a top 20 at a much more overloaded position (70 pitchers currently in)


    As for who is a user and who isn't, I have no idea. But this class has at least 11 guys that deserve election into the hall of fame based on the barometer of being a top 15 player at their position (the position players that is).

    And I'm not trying to preach WAR as everything, but it gives you a really good snap shot of who deserves to be in and who doesn't.


    Based on rWAR

    This hall of fame class statistically see it as this

    The obvious choices:

    Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell, Schilling

    The 'yes' but it's not as obvious

    Walker, Trammell, Raines, Palmerio

    The borderlines

    Lofton, Edgar, Biggio, Piazza

    And the borderline outs but they deserve a serious look

    Sosa, McGwire, McGriff

    Everybody else isn't close to deserving statistically

    like Murphy, Morris, Wells, Williams, Finely, Mattingly etc.


    Now again, this is just based on statistics, and it's using WAR as the first snap shot to dive into. But if we are going to stick by the barometer of the mean on who is currently in. There are 208 former MLB ball players in the hall of fame, 35 Negro Leaguers, 19 managers, 10 umpires, and 28 pioneers/executives.

    Of these 208 former big leaguers, 68 of them were pitchers and 140 of them were position players.

    8 positions (not including the pitcher) out of 140 that's about 17.5 players per position. A top 15 player at each position at the time of retirement seems like a fair barometer, and a top 70 pitcher seems like a fair placement for pitchers.


    fwiw, where do the pitchers place from this ballot in all time rWAR?

    Clemens - 3rd
    Schilling - 26th
    Wells - 81st
    Morris - 145th
    Smith - 268th
    Williams - 322nd
    Sele - 569th
    Hernandez - 569th
    Stanton - 775th
    Mesa - 990th


    So Schilling and Clemens easily, Wells deserves a thorough look but he is on the outside looking in when you dive deeper into his numbers, and the rest are way short.

    This doesn't even broach the subject that I don't agree with your choices on who is actually a user and who isn't.

    Now obviously nobody with a vote should be looking at WAR and just deciding. But if you start with WAR and then look at each player more closely from that starting point, you will see how and why each player falls into the categories they do. Catchers aren't treated as fairly by WAR standards, so Piazza isn't ranked highly enough. The same with pitchers, and first basemen probably have too much, same with RFers. So it's a snapshot. But it gives you a good starting point.


    While I respect your opinion, I simply do not agree with it.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 01-08-2013 at 12:01 AM.

  5. #395
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    I have not read this thread so I don't know if this has been posted, but this link adds up all the votes for the writers who revealed their choices. http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...llecting_gizmo

    Right now no one would get in, which would be pretty sad and really screw up the ballet for next year.

    Updated 9:45 ~ 124 Full Ballots ~ (21.6% of vote ~ based on last year)

    Cooperstown = Ghost town %.

    67.7 - Biggio
    65.3 - Bagwell
    63.7 - J. Morris
    62.9 - Raines
    62.1 - Piazza
    45.2 - Clemens
    45.2 - Bonds
    37.9 - E. Martinez
    37.9 - Trammell
    37.9 - L. Smith
    37.0 - Schilling
    21.8 - D. Murphy
    17.7 - McGriff
    16.1 - McGwire
    16.1 - L. Walker
    15.3 - Raffy
    15.3 - S. Sosa
    8.1 - Mattingly
    ———————————
    2.4 - Lofton
    2.4 - P. Rose (goofy write-in’s)
    1.6 - D. Wells
    1.6 - Bernie Williams
    0.8 - J. Franco
    0.8 - S. Alomar Jr.

  6. #396
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    Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Piazza, Raines, McGriff, Walker, Trammel, Bagwell, Palmerio..
    http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/image.php?u=197023&type=sigpic&dateline=1335472201

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Clown View Post
    Bonds would have made it without steroids, but because he did use steroids, he should NOT be allowed in. Greedy ****in bastard
    My thoughts...

  8. #398
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    This is Jayson Starks HOF Ballot.....I wanted to puke.

    Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy.

    The ones in bold are the only ones on that list that should get in. I'm sorry, but if we let guys like Morris, Schilling, and Murphy in....then that must be great news for my Yankees...because it means Pettitte and Williams should be in as well. Now, let me see how many of you disagree with that, but agree with Starks picks. Barry Bonds? Anyone who honestly says he didn't use is lying. I lift around people who take steroids, I occasionally train with people who take steroids, I have seen people do steroids. Bonds body, head, and mountain of acne he had on his back is ***** that I see from these roid heads at the gym consistently. Not to mention, shortly after Bonds reportedly started using, his tendon in his elbow blew out. Hmm, wonder why. I mean, the guy was such a horse and all of a sudden, boom. I loved Barry I really did, but if you cheated, you cheated. Same goes for A-Rod too, he SHOULD be in, but no. He cheated and that's that. (So you guys don't think I am biased)

    I'm starting to hate awards in every sport. Just saw the World XI team in soccer and i literally
    Last edited by Yankees90.; 01-08-2013 at 10:37 AM.
    New York Yankees
    FC Bayern Munchen


    Bundesliga: Wins- 25 / Draw- 3 / Loss- 2
    DFB-Pokal-Wins- 5 / Loss- 0 Finals vs Borussia Dortmund
    Champions League- Semi-Finals vs. Real Madrid.

    1st Leg- April 23rd in Madrid.
    2nd Leg- April 29th in Munich.

  9. #399
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    I'm going "Big Hall". Here's who I would add of players that debuted 1947-1984:

    I picked undervalued players, great players with shorter peak greatness, some compilers, and a couple players that were injury-plagued but made a big impact on the game with postseasons or long-standing records:
    1947- Gil Hodges (had one game in 1943 and went to military service)
    1949- Minnie Minoso, Don Newcombe
    1955- Ken Boyer, Rocky Colavito
    1957- Roger Maris
    1959- Jim Kaat
    1960- Joe Torre
    1962- Tony Oliva
    1963- Pete Rose, Dick Allen, Tommy John
    1964- Luis Tiant
    1968- Bobby Bonds, Ted Simmons
    1969- Thurman Munson, Steve Garvey
    1972- Dwight Evans
    1973- Dave Parker
    1974- Keith Hernandez, Fred Lynn
    1975- Ron Guidry
    1976- Dale Murphy
    1977- Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Jack Morris
    1979- Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson
    1982- Don Mattingly
    1983- Orel Hershiser
    1984- Bret Saberhagen

    As a White Sox fan, I couldn't bring myself to put in Harold Baines. Couldn't do it.

    When you look at the players that debuted in 1986 and on, it's just obvious that something happened. So if Sosa, McGwire, Sheffield, and later on Carlos Delgado and Bobby Abreu get in, then they should let in more players from the past.
    Last edited by getfoul; 01-08-2013 at 05:06 PM.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Lavigne43- View Post
    I have not read this thread so I don't know if this has been posted, but this link adds up all the votes for the writers who revealed their choices. http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...llecting_gizmo

    Right now no one would get in, which would be pretty sad and really screw up the ballet for next year.

    Updated 9:45 ~ 124 Full Ballots ~ (21.6% of vote ~ based on last year)

    Cooperstown = Ghost town %.

    67.7 - Biggio
    65.3 - Bagwell
    63.7 - J. Morris
    62.9 - Raines
    62.1 - Piazza
    45.2 - Clemens
    45.2 - Bonds
    37.9 - E. Martinez
    37.9 - Trammell
    37.9 - L. Smith
    37.0 - Schilling
    21.8 - D. Murphy
    17.7 - McGriff
    16.1 - McGwire
    16.1 - L. Walker
    15.3 - Raffy
    15.3 - S. Sosa
    8.1 - Mattingly
    覧覧覧覧覧
    2.4 - Lofton
    2.4 - P. Rose (goofy write-in痴)
    1.6 - D. Wells
    1.6 - Bernie Williams
    0.8 - J. Franco
    0.8 - S. Alomar Jr.
    I'm gonna be pissed if Lofton doesn't get 5%

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by yankees90. View Post
    This is Jayson Starks HOF Ballot.....I wanted to puke.

    Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy.

    The ones in bold are the only ones on that list that should get in. I'm sorry, but if we let guys like Morris, Schilling, and Murphy in....then that must be great news for my Yankees...because it means Pettitte and Williams should be in as well. Now, let me see how many of you disagree with that, but agree with Starks picks. Barry Bonds? Anyone who honestly says he didn't use is lying. I lift around people who take steroids, I occasionally train with people who take steroids, I have seen people do steroids. Bonds body, head, and mountain of acne he had on his back is ***** that I see from these roid heads at the gym consistently. Not to mention, shortly after Bonds reportedly started using, his tendon in his elbow blew out. Hmm, wonder why. I mean, the guy was such a horse and all of a sudden, boom. I loved Barry I really did, but if you cheated, you cheated. Same goes for A-Rod too, he SHOULD be in, but no. He cheated and that's that. (So you guys don't think I am biased)

    I'm starting to hate awards in every sport. Just saw the World XI team in soccer and i literally
    Again, what's wrong with Curt Schilling?

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I'm gonna be pissed if Lofton doesn't get 5%
    He probably won't. He just doesn't have that perception of a star player. The people who would vote for him used their 10 votes for other players.

    12 more ballots from last night

    Updated 4:00 AM ~ 136 Full Ballots ~ (23.7% of vote ~ based on last year)

    Cooperstown = Ghost town? %.

    69.8 - Biggio
    64.7 - J. Morris
    63.2 - Raines
    62.5 - Bagwell
    60.3 - Piazza
    43.4 - Clemens
    43.4 - Bonds
    39.7 - L. Smith
    38.2 - Trammell
    38.2 - E. Martinez
    36.8 - Schilling
    22.8 - D. Murphy
    19.1 - McGriff
    16.2 - L. Walker
    15.4 - S. Sosa
    14.7 - McGwire
    14.7 - Raffy
    8.8 - Mattingly
    覧覧覧覧覧
    2.2 - Lofton
    2.2 - P. Rose (goofy write-in痴)
    1.5 - D. Wells
    1.5 - Bernie Williams
    0.7 - J. Franco
    0.7 - S. Alomar Jr.

    Biggio is close, but I don't think he gets in until next year. Too many people who wouldn't want him to be first ballot. Morris is going to get a sizable percentage bump from the people who don't share, but I think he will only get to around 70%. I don't think Raines or Bagwell will increase, their prime supporters are people who reveal their vote. Piazza is a darkhorse, but I doubt it. I can't believe he has not gotten more support. No one else has a chance.

  13. #403
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    If Morris is the only one that gets in this year (somehow) I will ****ing rage.

    And this entire process is a 100% absolute ****ing joke. He is one of the worst performers on this ballot.


    I would LOVE to see anyone explain to me how Morris is deserving, but Curt Schilling isn't.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees90. View Post
    This is Jayson Starks HOF Ballot.....I wanted to puke.

    Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy.

    The ones in bold are the only ones on that list that should get in. I'm sorry, but if we let guys like Morris, Schilling, and Murphy in....then that must be great news for my Yankees...because it means Pettitte and Williams should be in as well. Now, let me see how many of you disagree with that, but agree with Starks picks. Barry Bonds? Anyone who honestly says he didn't use is lying. I lift around people who take steroids, I occasionally train with people who take steroids, I have seen people do steroids. Bonds body, head, and mountain of acne he had on his back is ***** that I see from these roid heads at the gym consistently. Not to mention, shortly after Bonds reportedly started using, his tendon in his elbow blew out. Hmm, wonder why. I mean, the guy was such a horse and all of a sudden, boom. I loved Barry I really did, but if you cheated, you cheated. Same goes for A-Rod too, he SHOULD be in, but no. He cheated and that's that. (So you guys don't think I am biased)

    I'm starting to hate awards in every sport. Just saw the World XI team in soccer and i literally
    So...Bonds should not go in because he used roids but Clemens is fine?

    Props.LgnD.

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    If Morris is the only one that gets in this year (somehow) I will ****ing rage.

    And this entire process is a 100% absolute ****ing joke. He is one of the worst performers on this ballot.


    I would LOVE to see anyone explain to me how Morris is deserving, but Curt Schilling isn't.
    The Hall of Fame isn't something to rage about. Tony Perez and Bruce Sutter are in. Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazeroski are in. There are plenty of players in the Hall that people don't agree should be there.

    I'd put in Schilling before Morris, but if Morris got in someday, good for him.

    I don't think anyone will get 75%. And I don't think Jack Morris will get in next year either, so I think you can sleep well tonight.

    The first step the Hall needs to make is to let the writers vote for more than 10 players starting next year. Then if nobody still gets in, they will have to change the whole process, which could mean no more BBWAA doing the voting.

    Personally, I'd go "Big Hall". I'd set up a process where 3-4 players go in per year starting in 2014 through 2025. There are just too many great players that debuted 1986-1997. Let the roid freaks in, but add more players from the past to offset the disproportion of eras.
    Last edited by getfoul; 01-08-2013 at 05:38 PM.

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