One of the Biggest Hall of Fame Classes to date: Discussion and vote thread

[SenorGato]

If we're going to apply "common sense" on who used steroids then we better start emptying the HOF. Amphetamines are banned too, no? Get Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, amongst many others, out of there then.

Key phrase on Piazza and androstenedione is "before it was banned."

I ****ing haaaaaaaate the steroids witch hunt with a passion, especially since the NFL somehow managed to avoid the Supreme Court. It was a nice little national play during a time when the government had more pressing issues to keep out of the public mind, but the witch hunt this turned into is just pathetic. You don't need proof...don't need anything but "he's big and look at his numbers"...and only the good ones have anything stripped from them...it's so f'n unimaginably stupid, but this is seriously the thought process of the majority.

[PhillyFaninLA]

Barry Bonds: I wouldn't vote for him or any of the steriod guys but I do believe he hit 500 homeruns cleanly. I think with as bad of a human as he is and being a steroid user he does not belong in.
There is no question that he is clearly deserving statistically for Cooperstown.

Roger Clemens: Another steriod user, like Bonds would have been a hall of famer and one of the best if he didn't use them but like Bonds he is a cheater and a bad person.

Sammy Sosa: He would not be in the conversation if he didn't cheat, he also had the corked bat. Sosa would have hit 350 homeruns max in my opinion if he didn't cheat.

Mike Piazza: One of the best catchers ever, he may have had his difficienies, but he was special. This is the type of player that the hall is made for.

Curt Schilling: I believe you are a hall of famer or not, their is no such thing as a first ballot or second ballot guy, ou are either a hall of famer or not, but I suspect he will be in but not first ballot.

Kenny Lofton: He was a nice player and a respected bat but he was good not special.

Craig Biggio: I think like Schilling he makes it but not right away, I think he should be in because he spent a decade getting on base and playing good defense.

Jeff Bagwell: Not sure if I'd vote for him but I suppose you have to put both of the killer B's in or neither.

Tim Raines: I don't have a strong opinion either way, I wouldn't object but I don't think I'd vote for him.

[2009mvp]

In The Rocket That Fell to Earth by Jeff Pearlman, Piazza was said to have told reporters, off record, that he used PEDs and two fellow ball players—one unnamed, the other was Reggie Jefferson—confirmed this. Jefferson was quoted as saying, "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it. It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched."

There's little concrete proof on any of these guys, but it's far more than 'he hits lots of HRs' on Piazza. Which isn't a knock on him or anything, he's a HOFer. I just find it absurd to ignore all the circumstantial evidence that points to PED use in his case and then keep Clemens/Bonds etc out.

[thawv]

If we're going to apply "common sense" on who used steroids then we better start emptying the HOF. Amphetamines are banned too, no? Get Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, amongst many others, out of there then.

Key phrase on Piazza and androstenedione is "before it was banned."

I ****ing haaaaaaaate the steroids witch hunt with a passion, especially since the NFL somehow managed to avoid the Supreme Court. It was a nice little national play during a time when the government had more pressing issues to keep out of the public mind, but the witch hunt this turned into is just pathetic. You don't need proof...don't need anything but "he's big and look at his numbers"...and only the good ones have anything stripped from them...it's so f'n unimaginably stupid, but this is seriously the thought process of the majority.

You're a smart guy Gato. So I'm going to assume you're not comparing the affects of steroids to the affects of amphetamines.

I'm gonna be honest with you Gato........I believe that most players are using right now! The testing program will always be behind all the new stuff that comes out each year. I also believe that players are testing positive on a daily basis. The league just picks and chooses, every once in awhile who's names to release. Braun is a classic case. His results where not supposed to be released. But when it accidentally happened, guess what........nothing happened to him. The league made sure of it.

Not one face of the game has been released. It's no accident either.

[getfoul]

I just assume everyone in the 90's juiced at one point or another. Nobody is above suspicion...nobody.

It's a Catch 22 now...of course some of the juicers were the best players of their Era...do you still honor them, or do you put fewer and fewer players in now, which would make the Hall less legitimate?

My feeling...take the writers out of the equation. For the most part, we know what a Hall of Famer is now. My formula is that there are two Hall of Famers "born" every year. Maybe 2012, the HOF's born were Harper and Trout.

Going back, I'd put in Jack Morris just to piss everyone off. I'd also put in Tim Raines.

The Hall itself should take over the vote with a smaller panel of "experts". Then the Hall of Famers from the Steroid Era would go in two at a time over the next 15 years:

Clemens, Bonds, Thomas, Mussina, Johnson, Thome, Kent, Jeter, McGriff, Piazza, Schilling, Bagwell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Griffey, Hoffman, Jeter, Chipper, Rivera, Pedro, Arod, Manny

I'm leaving out Edgar Martinez, Walker, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Williams just because I don't think they did enough or if they got their numbers mainly because of the PEDs. Omar Vizquel...I don't want him in either, but he'll probably get in.

Finally, put up a plaque in the Hall that explains the Era and how Major League Baseball was just as guilty (or more) in creating the atmosphere to cheat. If a player was caught cheating, make a notation on his plaque.

[beldugo]

I think Palmeiro is the biggest snub in this thread, Bonds 39 votes, Clemens 28 votes and Palmeiro just 4 votes. I assume that if you vote for Clemens and Bonds you don't care about steroids use, so that makes Palmeiro a great choice to be in the HOF. He was so great he won the gold glove playing just 28 games at first base, joking aside if you don't mind steroids users in the HOF he is a no brainer.

[Blue french]

Barry Bonds: I wouldn't vote for him or any of the steriod guys but I do believe he hit 500 homeruns cleanly. I think with as bad of a human as he is and being a steroid user he does not belong in.
There is no question that he is clearly deserving statistically for Cooperstown.

Roger Clemens: Another steriod user, like Bonds would have been a hall of famer and one of the best if he didn't use them but like Bonds he is a cheater and a bad person.

Sammy Sosa: He would not be in the conversation if he didn't cheat, he also had the corked bat. Sosa would have hit 350 homeruns max in my opinion if he didn't cheat.

Mike Piazza: One of the best catchers ever, he may have had his difficienies, but he was special. This is the type of player that the hall is made for.

Curt Schilling: I believe you are a hall of famer or not, their is no such thing as a first ballot or second ballot guy, ou are either a hall of famer or not, but I suspect he will be in but not first ballot.

Kenny Lofton: He was a nice player and a respected bat but he was good not special.

Craig Biggio: I think like Schilling he makes it but not right away, I think he should be in because he spent a decade getting on base and playing good defense.

Jeff Bagwell: Not sure if I'd vote for him but I suppose you have to put both of the killer B's in or neither.

Tim Raines: I don't have a strong opinion either way, I wouldn't object but I don't think I'd vote for him.

Can't say better, totally agree, this side of Mike Piazza who was my idol, but I have doubts as for any players who played in the dirty years.
I think one player should be elected after all this time : Pete Rose. He bet, always on his own Reds. Such a minor offense compared withh all the dirty players.

[getfoul]

I think Palmeiro is the biggest snub in this thread, Bonds 39 votes, Clemens 28 votes and Palmeiro just 4 votes. I assume that if you vote for Clemens and Bonds you don't care about steroids use, so that makes Palmeiro a great choice to be in the HOF. He was so great he won the gold glove playing just 28 games at first base, joking aside if you don't mind steroids users in the HOF he is a no brainer.

I probably could be swayed on Palmeiro, but is he just Mark Grace on steroids? I don't know.

You know who I think gets screwed if he did it clean...Fred McGriff. He had a pretty consistently great career, and if 500 homers is the benchmark, then he only didn't get there because of the strike of 94/95.

[Jeffy25]

At this point Piazza is the only one who would be voted in lol

[Jeffy25]

what about rafel palmero? is in both the 3000 hit and 500 home run club and has the same cloud over his head that bonds, sosa, etc do.

Palmerio is an option on the poll, I was only listing the new options in that post

[iam brett favre]

Put Bonds, Bagwell, Clemens, Mattingly, McGriff, Piazza, Edgar, McGwire in. Probably forgot a guy I voted for in there.

[iam brett favre]

I would never, ever, ever, ever vote the scum of the earth AKA Schilling in. Hope he gets snubbed until the day after he dies.
Just kidding, but really.

[metswon69]

At this point Piazza is the only one who would be voted in lol

I am sure there is some cloud around Piazza too considering how dominant with the bat he was from a position few guys are.

But how do you keep out the best offensive catcher of all time without more substantiated proof he cheated? (I wasn't direction that at you, was more of a general question)

[Fly]

a whole 28.8%, that's practically half his career....

What? That's less than a third of it!

[VRP723]

I voted for Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Bagwell, Piazza, Bagwell, Raines, Martinez and Walker. I wouldn't be opposed to Biggio, Trammel or Lofton, just not on my personal ballot.