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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterH View Post
    So just to be clear, you'd pass on kinsler on the basis that bonafacio had a better WAR last year? i think some people put far too much merit on saber's
    I can't speak for Halladay, but I would pass on kinsler because the cost would be too high given how I value him.

    He's better than Maicer and Bonifacio by a mile.

    But the original proposition was that we would move him for Romero and I'm 100% against that. And really I don't think the Rangers would accept a package without Romero, so getting him is probably unrealistic anyways.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterH View Post
    So just to be clear, you'd pass on kinsler on the basis that bonafacio had a better WAR last year? i think some people put far too much merit on saber's
    Did you even read what he said? He clearly stated Kinsler reaps the benefits of hitting in Texas. Also, his road numbers are just terrible. Thus he's over rated.

    Obviously I would take Kinsler over Bonafacio, but we would probably need to give up too much for him and that contract isn't that pretty...

    If you're willing to pay Kinsler 14 mill next year, 16 mill the next two years (and more after), then I would much rather overpay for LaRoche and solve the DH problem.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterH View Post
    So just to be clear, you'd pass on kinsler on the basis that bonafacio had a better WAR last year? i think some people put far too much merit on saber's
    No, I wouldnt pass on him given his history, my point was that last season he wasn't all that great and of course, it sure helps hitting in that park which MUST be a factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaysFan87 View Post
    Bonifacio would be one of the worst starting 2B with the bat in all of th MLB last year. Right between Beckham and Barney with his godawful .290wOBA. Not to mention his atrocious glove. Im sorry Bonifacio is no where near Kinsler and should be no where near starting 2B this year.
    And I'm not arguing for Bonafacio, I never said he was great.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidDraco View Post
    Did you even read what he said? He clearly stated Kinsler reaps the benefits of hitting in Texas. Also, his road numbers are just terrible. Thus he's over rated.

    Obviously I would take Kinsler over Bonafacio, but we would probably need to give up too much for him and that contract isn't that pretty...

    If you're willing to pay Kinsler 14 mill next year, 16 mill the next two years (and more after), then I would much rather overpay for LaRoche and solve the DH problem.
    actually i was solely commenting on his WAR comment, which holds no merit. Rogers stadium isnt exactly a tough hitters park, nor is yankees stadium, or fenway, so i dont see him batting here with the jays a problem. not saying its like in texas but i dont see it that big of a concern. yes i know it would be too much to get him and i dont see him coming here at all, but to say that his offseason last year is an issue, considering he is a career .811 OPS and only 30 years old makes no sense.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterH View Post
    actually i was solely commenting on his WAR comment, which holds no merit. Rogers stadium isnt exactly a tough hitters park, nor is yankees stadium, or fenway, so i dont see him batting here with the jays a problem. not saying its like in texas but i dont see it that big of a concern. yes i know it would be too much to get him and i dont see him coming here at all, but to say that his offseason last year is an issue, considering he is a career .811 OPS and only 30 years old makes no sense.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    No, I'm not suggesting that Bonafacio is as good as Kinsler, my point was that Kinslers overrated given a similar WAR last season to a bench player. This is a "what have you done for me lately" argument and I don't think its unreasonable given Kinslers reputation.
    It actually is pretty unreasonable given that Kinsler has been worth 3.2, 7.5 and 3.2 WAR the last 3 years. By your logic Bonifacio's career year WAR (3.3 via FG) which he'll never come close to achieving again is better than half the Jays 2012 stats. That includes, but is not limited to: Bautista, Lawrie, Rasmus, Arencibia, Lind, Izturis, and virtually the entire pitching staff.

    As overrated as you'd like to believe Kinsler is, he would still be one of the Jays top players.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    It actually is pretty unreasonable given that Kinsler has been worth 3.2, 7.5 and 3.2 WAR the last 3 years. By your logic Bonifacio's career year WAR (3.3 via FG) which he'll never come close to achieving again is better than half the Jays 2012 stats. That includes, but is not limited to: Bautista, Lawrie, Rasmus, Arencibia, Lind, Izturis, and virtually the entire pitching staff.

    As overrated as you'd like to believe Kinsler is, he would still be one of the Jays top players.
    Where are you getting Kinslers WAR stats? I have him at 3.8,7.1 and 2.0 the last 3 years. Regardless, my point still stands that last year he wasn't all that great. It was less about me saying Bonafacio is a good player and more about how I believe Kinsler is overrated given his recent statistics. A career-low .749 OPS, an OPS+ of 95, k's etc. Just a bad year or a sign of things to come? Also, Bautista was hurt,Lawrie is a 22 year old,Rasmus was awful, JPA isn't great,Lind is Lind,Izturis is a bench player and not only was the staff last year injured like crazy but the guys who were seen as regulars weren't great either minus a select few. No, Kinsler isn't a bad player, I'd welcome him here over our current second basemen but for a guy set to make the money he's gonna make, I expect more. Plain and simple. You wanna use the averages, I understand that side of the argument but what if he repeats last season? A bad year or a sign of things to come in terms of regression?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Where are you getting Kinslers WAR stats? I have him at 3.8,7.1 and 2.0 the last 3 years.
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...95&position=2B

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Where are you getting Kinslers WAR stats? I have him at 3.8,7.1 and 2.0 the last 3 years. Regardless, my point still stands that last year he wasn't all that great.
    Your point doesn't stand, because he was quite good last year by any measure. A league average offensive line while accounting for park factors from an up the middle position player who is a good base runner and solid defender is a quality player.

    It was less about me saying Bonafacio is a good player and more about how I believe Kinsler is overrated given his recent statistics. A career-low .749 OPS, an OPS+ of 95, k's etc. Just a bad year or a sign of things to come?
    First of all, he struck out exactly as much as he did his career average. He had a down year, but unless you think his career is over there's no reason to think he won't go back to hitting like he always has. And even if he's only a 99 wRC+ hitter going forward, that's still a good player at 2B.

    Also, Bautista was hurt,Lawrie is a 22 year old,Rasmus was awful, JPA isn't great,Lind is Lind,Izturis is a bench player and not only was the staff last year injured like crazy but the guys who were seen as regulars weren't great either minus a select few.
    It's interesting how easily you can make excuses for the guys who play for the Jays.

    No, Kinsler isn't a bad player, I'd welcome him here over our current second basemen but for a guy set to make the money he's gonna make, I expect more. Plain and simple. You wanna use the averages, I understand that side of the argument but what if he repeats last season? A bad year or a sign of things to come in terms of regression?
    Even if he's only as good as he was last year, he's still worth the contract. So you win either way, because either the bat regresses back to his career averages or you're "stuck" with a 3 win player.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Your point doesn't stand, because he was quite good last year by any measure. A league average offensive line while accounting for park factors from an up the middle position player who is a good base runner and solid defender is a quality player.



    First of all, he struck out exactly as much as he did his career average. He had a down year, but unless you think his career is over there's no reason to think he won't go back to hitting like he always has. And even if he's only a 99 wRC+ hitter going forward, that's still a good player at 2B.



    It's interesting how easily you can make excuses for the guys who play for the Jays.



    Even if he's only as good as he was last year, he's still worth the contract. So you win either way, because either the bat regresses back to his career averages or you're "stuck" with a 3 win player.
    Or he keeps declining. But I'm with you I do like Kinsler and think he has plenty of game left.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Your point doesn't stand, because he was quite good last year by any measure. A league average offensive line while accounting for park factors from an up the middle position player who is a good base runner and solid defender is a quality player.



    First of all, he struck out exactly as much as he did his career average. He had a down year, but unless you think his career is over there's no reason to think he won't go back to hitting like he always has. And even if he's only a 99 wRC+ hitter going forward, that's still a good player at 2B.



    It's interesting how easily you can make excuses for the guys who play for the Jays.



    Even if he's only as good as he was last year, he's still worth the contract. So you win either way, because either the bat regresses back to his career averages or you're "stuck" with a 3 win player.
    I'll just stop here, we won't agree.

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