Ware vs spencer

[rawz]

good points!

thank you, and i might add, your points have been dead on lately, and i couldnt say it better myself. ( not that they were ever not dead on, lol)

Get Jason Babin

no.

[thedon01]

haha thanks bud

[blacknell]

you portrayed that statement as if Ware was the defense, hence the reason for reply. If that's not what you meant then please clarify.

My theory is the complete opposite, please read again. I'm saying that by your example Pips and Rods contributed too. You made it appear as if Jordan was the only contributor and or reason for changes.

You used the phrase "change the game on defense" as an adjective to describe Ware's ability on the field. You weren't making a general statement that Ware causing opposing coaches to change their defensive scheme. You were definitely trying to make the case about how valuable Ware "was". I'm not going to debate semantics, we both know what you were implying, but it's not a big deal.

Again Roy Williams was younger and like BigDFan said Jerry paying in draft picks does not set the market price for a said player, because Jones tends to act frivolously and over pay with draft picks.

Well i didnt' know a general phrase needed to be defined, you know because its so general. If it was a phrase that i just made up 5 minutes ago it would need to be explained.

True Williams was younger but he didn't have nearly the production as Ware

[thedon01]

again with the semantics, it has nothing to do with defining a statement. you were trying to make the case that Ware used to be great and now has fallen off. I'm not going to dance back and forth around that issue. We both know the intent. You cherry picked certain facts to make the case and you only have a point if you compare his season thus far with other seasons up to that point. I don't know the stats in regards to this, but clearly you haven't used them to define your theory. In my opinion you overreacted which is normal under the conditions of this team.

After the incorrect statement about Roy Williams I'm starting to see a trend of embellishment. My suggestion is to do a little research on the matter than make the decide whether or not there's some validity, or if there's emotion attached to your theory.

Again for the record, I'm a fan of the team/heritage. If trading Ware yielded a kings ransom in return I'd highly consider it. Trading him would be solely based on a return rather than because I think he's declining. The problem is the NFL is based around drafting rather than trading. QB's have a better chance to be traded than an OLB. Jerry Jones treats the NFL like baseball.

[blacknell]

again with the semantics, it has nothing to do with defining a statement. you were trying to make the case that Ware used to be great and now has fallen off. I'm not going to dance back and forth around that issue. We both know the intent. You cherry picked certain facts to make the case and you only have a point if you compare his season thus far with other seasons up to that point. I don't know the stats in regards to this, but clearly you haven't used them to define your theory. In my opinion you overreacted which is normal under the conditions of this team.

After the incorrect statement about Roy Williams I'm starting to see a trend of embellishment. My suggestion is to do a little research on the matter than make the decide whether or not there's some validity, or if there's emotion attached to your theory.

Again for the record, I'm a fan of the team/heritage. If trading Ware yielded a kings ransom in return I'd highly consider it. Trading him would be solely based on a return rather than because I think he's declining. The problem is the NFL is based around drafting rather than trading. QB's have a better chance to be traded than an OLB. Jerry Jones treats the NFL like baseball.

Dude did I not say trade him for two 1st and a 3rd or did I simply say trade him due to his declining play? I actually believe I said trade for those picks because his play is declining. I'm sorry but your trying to flip flip what I said, trying to make it seem like i just want him traded just because his onfield play is sliding and you have come up with this idea to only entertain high draft picks after that was the original post i made. On Roy Williams he had one 1,000 yard season in 4 seasons and only 200 yards before we traded for him, so like I said his production in no way compares to Ware's and I don't know what incorrect statement was made about Roy.

Yes Ware has been great and his play is falling off which I think i came out and said from the get go. Yes Ware was a gamechanger on defense the sameway Ray Lewis is for the Ravens. LOL without Ware the defense takes a major hit, but according to you his pass rush yielded the same production that Newman put out and Victor Butler or whoever else played defense.

[thedon01]

Dude did I not say trade him for two 1st and a 3rd or did I simply say trade him due to his declining play? I actually believe I said trade for those picks because his play is declining. I'm sorry but your trying to flip flip what I said, trying to make it seem like i just want him traded just because his onfield play is sliding and you have come up with this idea to only entertain high draft picks after that was the original post i made. On Roy Williams he had one 1,000 yard season in 4 seasons and only 200 yards before we traded for him, so like I said his production in no way compares to Ware's and I don't know what incorrect statement was made about Roy.

Yes Ware has been great and his play is falling off which I think i came out and said from the get go. Yes Ware was a gamechanger on defense the sameway Ray Lewis is for the Ravens. LOL without Ware the defense takes a major hit, but according to you his pass rush yielded the same production that Newman put out and Victor Butler or whoever else played defense.

Calm down, I'm not making this personal, just take it easy. Do you understand semantics, because again you're missing the point and focusing on minute details that are irrelevant. You made the case that Ware was declining so we should trade him. I'm telling you that the reason you're stating that theory is based on incorrect data and raw emotion. There's no plausible way you can make the claim that Ware is in decline, so it based on embellishment which is based on emotion. My point is very simple to understand if you choose to read between the lines.

Then you continue to pettifog the issue by asserting that Roy Williams was traded for X amount of picks when in fact your statement about Roy Williams return was inaccurate, thus making the Roy Williams example inaccurate. Hence why i said you're illustrating a trend of embellishment:

(A). Ware is in decline (no factual evidence to support this)
(B) The Roy Williams trade yielded two 1st round picks and a third (incorrect).

Then you contradicted yourself and at first said Ware changes the game of defense, then went on to say that you meant it as he changes the way coaches scheme, now you're saying he's like Ray where he's a "gamechanger". It seems like you're bouncing back and forth after I point out the fallacies. Which is it? Both?

No one is arguing that Ware isn't important and the most consistent player on our defense over the last 5 or so years. We're in disagreement about your reasoning.

Then you went ahead and put words in my mouth when in fact I never said anything about Butler or Newman. I said you can't discredit the rest of team and think that they aren't contributors just to cherry pick your theory.

The bottom line is that you've been trying to assert that Ware is on the decline without any evidence to prove this. Now if that's your gut feeling that I can respect that, but you've been trying to assert this as a fact. Now if you'd like to prove otherwise than I'm all ears; I even said do some research about it because you should know by now I'm not biased to different opinions. I dislike it when people try to assert their opinions as fact without using any sort of evidence to prove otherwise.

[rawz]

just curious, blacknell... but what team will give us 2 1st round picks for dware? just curuous, what team would offer that? i cant think of any, TBH..

1st, it prob. be a team that runs a 3-4.
2nd, no team that is drafting top 10 would do it, so if a team were to do it, it be a team that drafted most likely 20-32...

and if there drafting 20-32, there probally not a team that would trade 2 1st round picks for a player.

and even if they did, we wouldnt get fair value most likely, and a good return IMO.

seriously.

[thedon01]

Here's some stats to go off of.

I'm only using the first 11 games of the season because we've only played 11 games this year. These stats are based on Ware's 8 years with the Cowboys.

Blacknell I apologize for the incorrect figures so allow me to post an update; i will go back and edit the original post after this one:

Fact # 1
Season: (Sack total)/first 11 games
2005 - 8 / 4
2006 - 11.5 / 6
2007 - 14 / 8
2008 - 20 / 12
2009 - 11 / 8
2010 - 15.5 / 9.5
2011 - 19.5 / 14

Total - 99.5 / 61.5

Average - 14 / 8.8

So, Ware over the 1st 11 games of 2012 has 10 sacks (some sites claim 10.5, but for the sake of argument I'll say 10). His average should be 8.8, yet he's already 1.2 sacks ahead of his average. The correction that Blacknell pointed out actually makes this fact even more beneficial to my point.

Fact #2
Now in 5 of those seasons Ware had less than his career average by the first 11 games. Even though the averages would have been different at the times the games were played an overall view illustrates that Ware has had the majority of his seasons under his average by the first 11 games. We can clearly see that on 2 "freak" seasons he had tremendous numbers. Again nothing shows the decline of Ware. We see that in

2008 Ware had only 2 more sacks at this point in the season than his current mark and went on to have his best season. Blacknell is obviously using the 2008 and 2011 seasons as his bench marks to define Ware's impact. He's cherry picking Ware's best season's to make his point. Ironically by his definition of Ware's 19.5 sacks being the benchmark we should have traded him after 2009 when he only had 11 total sacks. Yet Ware came back in 2010 with 15.5 then jumped an additional 4 in 2011 to 19.5. If we traded Ware in 2009 because he was under 19.5 sacks he never would have accumulated 19.5 sacks in 2011 as a Cowboy. Again more proof of embellishment.

Fact #3
Ware's average over the first 11 games of a season is no longer 11.5 due to the correction blacknell pointed out, but now 8.8. Ware in 2012 has 10 sacks, more than his average, yet Blacknell insists Ware is in decline. So even when Ware is ahead of his own curve, based solely on math he's in decline, based on Blacknell's theory.

Fact #4
Ware averages 14 sacks per season. In 2012 he has 10 with 5 games to go. Ware still averages less than 1 sack per game (actually .78). If we have 5 games left and you multiply the 5 games by Ware's single game average you'll get 3.9. Take his current sack number and add it to his single game average.

Current Sack Total + Single Season Average = Projected end of the season total
10 + 3.9 = 13.9

Ware's single season sack average is 14. So even if Ware just play's his average style of play (which by his stats he's currently ahead of the mark) he'll clearly hit his average, yet to Blacknell this is a decline.

Now I do apologize for the original incorrect data, but the correction pointed out by Blacknell actually makes my point even stronger.

The facts show that Ware is doing just fine in terms of sacking the QB. There's no reason to assume he's in decline.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...W/WareDe99.htm
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/.../demarcus-ware

[blacknell]

Calm down, I'm not making this personal, just take it easy. Do you understand semantics, because again you're missing the point and focusing on minute details that are irrelevant. You made the case that Ware was declining so we should trade him. I'm telling you that the reason you're stating that theory is based on incorrect data and raw emotion. There's no plausible way you can make the claim that Ware is in decline, so it based on embellishment which is based on emotion. My point is very simple to understand if you choose to read between the lines.

Then you continue to pettifog the issue by asserting that Roy Williams was traded for X amount of picks when in fact your statement about Roy Williams return was inaccurate, thus making the Roy Williams example inaccurate. Hence why i said you're illustrating a trend of embellishment:

(A). Ware is in decline (no factual evidence to support this)
(B) The Roy Williams trade yielded two 1st round picks and a third (incorrect).

Then you contradicted yourself and at first said Ware changes the game of defense, then went on to say that you meant it as he changes the way coaches scheme, now you're saying he's like Ray where he's a "gamechanger". It seems like you're bouncing back and forth after I point out the fallacies. Which is it? Both?

No one is arguing that Ware isn't important and the most consistent player on our defense over the last 5 or so years. We're in disagreement about your reasoning.

Then you went ahead and put words in my mouth when in fact I never said anything about Butler or Newman. I said you can't discredit the rest of team and think that they aren't contributors just to cherry pick your theory.

The bottom line is that you've been trying to assert that Ware is on the decline without any evidence to prove this. Now if that's your gut feeling that I can respect that, but you've been trying to assert this as a fact. Now if you'd like to prove otherwise than I'm all ears; I even said do some research about it because you should know by now I'm not biased to different opinions. I dislike it when people try to assert their opinions as fact without using any sort of evidence to prove otherwise.

Saying somebody is a gamechanger doesn't discredit the rest of the team. Thats why I used the Michael jordan analogy earlier by stating he was a gamechanger. With 5 games left in the season Ware is not going to put up 9.5 sacks. Anything under 19.5 sacks is a DECLINE in sack numbers and when stats go down that is a sign of decline in play to me. Maybe to you a decline in numbers mean a player is getting better but no to me. He is not being a disruptive force on the defensive side of the ball, last year even when he didn't get a sack he had pressure on the Qb and this season its not there. This is the 1st time i have seen Ware get handled in one on one situations. There is no stat to justify a man getting man handled one on one or showing that opposing teams Qb's having days to throw the football. He isn't making big plays none come to mind and he has better cover corners this season and I actually expected him to put up more sacks. He is not a dominant force this season and if you say he is then you have to be blind.

[blacknell]

just curious, blacknell... but what team will give us 2 1st round picks for dware? just curuous, what team would offer that? i cant think of any, TBH..

1st, it prob. be a team that runs a 3-4.
2nd, no team that is drafting top 10 would do it, so if a team were to do it, it be a team that drafted most likely 20-32...

and if there drafting 20-32, there probally not a team that would trade 2 1st round picks for a player.

and even if they did, we wouldnt get fair value most likely, and a good return IMO.

seriously.

never know who would have thought Dallas gives up two 1st round picks for Joey Galloway or New orleans trades there whole draft for Ricky Williams

[blacknell]

Here's some stats to go off of.

I'm only using the first 11 games of the season because we've only played 11 games this year. These stats are based on Ware's 8 years with the Cowboys.

Fact #1
Over the first 11 games of the season Ware has had (in terms of sacks):
2005-2006 = 13
2006-2007 = 14
2007-2008 = 12
2008-2009 = 12
2009-2010 = 8
2010-2011 = 9.5
2011-2012 = 14
2012-2013 = 10.5
Average = approx: 11.5

So Ware has only missed the mark of his average by a single sack. This does not definitively show that Ware is in decline.

Fact # 2
In 2 of those seasons, for the 1st 11 games of the season Ware had 8 sacks (2009-2010) and 9.5 sacks (2010-2011). The irony is in the 2008-2009 season Ware had his best single season sack record with 20. The following year (2009-2010) he fell to 11 and missed 1 start. Then right after that, in (2010-2011) his first 11 games netted 9.5 sacks (1 less than this season), but finished that season with his 2nd highest sack total at 15. At that point in his career he was averaging 11 sacks over the first 11 games, so in 2010-2011 he was sitting at 1.5 sacks shy of his average, but bounced back with his 2nd best single season sack total. So we can clearly see that a down year, over the first 11 games or as an entire season does not = a decline.

2008-2009 = 12 sacks in first 11 games - total of 20 at the end of the season
2009-2010 = 8 sacks in first 11 games - total of 11 at the end of the season
2010-2011 = 9.5 sacks in first 11 games - total of 15.5 at the end of the season

Fact #3
Ware's average over the 1st 11 games of any season is approx 11.5 sacks. Ware in 2012 has 10.5, only 1 shy of his average.

Fact #4
Ware averages approx 13 sacks per season (2005-2011). Ware in 2012 = 10.5 sacks. He's only 2.5 sacks off his seasonal average with 5 games to go.

The facts show that Ware is doing just fine in terms of sacking the QB. There's no reason to assume he's in decline.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...W/WareDe99.htm

His rookie season he had 8 sacks for the whole season so where are you getting 13? Your sack numbers are not correct I don't know where the numbers came from. 06 he had 11.5 sacks the whole season so he could have had 14 in 11 games unless they subtract sacks as the season goes on. This season he has 10 and not 10.5, but he is going through games with 2 tackles and 0 sacks or 3 tackles and .5 sacks. That is not dominant at all

Wash-2 tackles 0sacks
Clev-3 tackels .5 sacks
Philly 3 tackles .5 sacks
He has disappeared the past 3 weeks

[thedon01]

Saying somebody is a gamechanger doesn't discredit the rest of the team. Thats why I used the Michael jordan analogy earlier by stating he was a gamechanger. With 5 games left in the season Ware is not going to put up 9.5 sacks. Anything under 19.5 sacks is a DECLINE in sack numbers and when stats go down that is a sign of decline in play to me. Maybe to you a decline in numbers mean a player is getting better but no to me. He is not being a disruptive force on the defensive side of the ball, last year even when he didn't get a sack he had pressure on the Qb and this season its not there. This is the 1st time i have seen Ware get handled in one on one situations. There is no stat to justify a man getting man handled one on one or showing that opposing teams Qb's having days to throw the football. He isn't making big plays none come to mind and he has better cover corners this season and I actually expected him to put up more sacks. He is not a dominant force this season and if you say he is then you have to be blind.

1. Correct, a gamechanger does not = rest of team is worthless.

2. You were trying to make the claim that Ware is the defense, which is where we disagree, and in all honesty I'm not going to go back and forth about this. You were alluding to this and that's that. We can agree to disagree.

3.

Anything under 19.5 sacks is a DECLINE

There's my proof of embellishment because Ware has only had 2 seasons where he accumulated 19.5 sacks. So he's been playing 7 full seasons and by your standard the majority of his career has been in decline. Ironically you're using the 19.5 bench mark because of the 2011 season where he finished with 19.5. Again you're refusing to look at the facts and cherry pick something to make point. Yet the stat you're using is so beyond embellishment that it dilutes your credibility in this discussion.

4. Ware is not a disruptive force, yet he has the most sacks on this team and the 4th most in the NFL. Please calculate the total amount of defensive players in the NFL and you'll find Ware is 4th overall in sack numbers. Again another piece of evidence proving you're embellishing. Do you remember the trend i said in the previous post?

5. Because "big plays" don't come to your mind = decline. Just another example of cherry picking and embellishment.

6. You expect him to put up more sacks than his average? How is that even possible or how is that even evidence of decline? Again embellishment.

Listen, if you choose to believe Ware is in decline based on 0 statistical evidence, embellished facts and premises, and in return refuse to consider facts and proof in your assessment than by all means have your opinion, but don't expect others to even consider your "points" valid.

[thedon01]

His rookie season he had 8 sacks for the whole season so where are you getting 13? Your sack numbers are not correct I don't know where the numbers came from. 06 he had 11.5 sacks the whole season so he could have had 14 in 11 games unless they subtract sacks as the season goes on. This season he has 10 and not 10.5, but he is going through games with 2 tackles and 0 sacks or 3 tackles and .5 sacks. That is not dominant at all

Wash-2 tackles 0sacks
Clev-3 tackels .5 sacks
Philly 3 tackles .5 sacks
He has disappeared the past 3 weeks

You're right i miscalculated something, let me go back and correct this.
You're really going to argue the the picayune .5. Are you just trying to be argumentative?

[blacknell]

1. Correct, a gamechanger does not = rest of team is worthless.

2. You were trying to make the claim that Ware is the defense, which is where we disagree, and in all honesty I'm not going to go back and forth about this. You were alluding to this and that's that. We can agree to disagree.

3. There's my proof of embellishment because Ware has only had 2 seasons where he accumulated 19.5 sacks. So he's been playing 7 full seasons and by your standard the majority of his career has been in decline. Ironically you're using the 19.5 bench mark because of the 2011 season where he finished with 19.5. Again you're refusing to look at the facts and cherry pick something to make point. Yet the stat you're using is so beyond embellishment that it dilutes your credibility in this discussion.

4. Ware is not a disruptive force, yet he has the most sacks on this team and the 4th most in the NFL. Please calculate the total amount of defensive players in the NFL and you'll find Ware is 4th overall in sack numbers. Again another piece of evidence proving you're embellishing. Do you remember the trend i said in the previous post?

5. Because "big plays" don't come to your mind = decline. Just another example of cherry picking and embellishment.

6. You expect him to put up more sacks than his average? How is that even possible or how is that even evidence of decline? Again embellishment.

Listen, if you choose to believe Ware is in decline based on 0 statistical evidence, embellished facts and premises, and in return refuse to consider facts and proof in your assessment than by all means have your opinion, but don't expect others to even consider your "points" valid.

Lol ok dude were done because for 1 nearly all of your sacks stats were wrong. If he didn't have 19.5 sacks until 2011 how can he play in a decline his whole career? Now you just talking out of your arse and throwing out random BS. You know and did not think thats what I meant and nobody else in the world would figure thats what i meant. LOL thats all I can say about that..

I said Ware was a gamechanger and in your mind you assume that means he is a CB,SS,FS,DE,MLB and I have never heard that as the defintion of a game changer.

How does big plays not come to mind a sign of embellishment? Do you even know what the word means? Yes one can put up more sacks than they average its very possible and its possible in nearly everything. If Kobe averages 27 points a game can he not put 81 points in a game? If i average 77 yards a game can i not get 150 yards in a game? I'm pretty sure you don't know what embellish means.

Embellish-is basically adding stuff in to make something seem better than it is.
If i say he is on the decline because he isn't getting sacks that is not embellishment.

[blacknell]

You're right i miscalculated something, let me go back and correct this.
You're really going to argue the the picayune .5. Are you just trying to be argumentative?

Don't forget all the other wrong sack totals you had that i said. I'm sure you just made some sack totals up or using the ones you got in Maddden