Ware vs spencer

[blacknell]

Danny McRay has more tackles than Ware. Should we hang onto him and let the most consistent defensive player the Cowboys have seen in over a decade go because of less than stellar 2012 campaign? Come on now

I don't believe i have said anything about tackles at all. Ware hasn't been dominant at all this season and I have been watching him get manhandled in one on one situations. He is now the 2nd best LB on this team and is close to sliding down to number 3. His pass rush has disappeared and if he can't get to the QB why keep him?

[thedon01]

okay I'll play along.

1. McRay is having a better season in terms of tackling than Ware, but we all know he is far less valuable than Ware. So just because McRay may have a better statistic than Ware doesn't mean he's better than Ware. I thought you'd understand the theory i applied.

2. Your entire assessment is based off of 1/2 of 1 season. You're ready to ship a pro bowl caliber defensive juggernaut out the door because of poor season. And let me state that Ware's "poor season" is still far better than 75% of the leagues "good seasons".

3. Your choosing to look at the negative and blame Ware and Ware only for the less than stellar start. I think many fans have been spoiled by his previous years that they won't stand for a season in which Ware isn't "dominant" by your definition. It's like Mariano Rivera and the Yankees.

4. You throw the words "best LB on this team" based on 1/2 a season.

5. Now you apply so many fallacies to your though process that it's hard to even evaluate the root of the problem, but let me try.

(A). Just because Ware has had a less than stellar first half of the season does not = his career's in decline and no longer useful or needed on the Cowboys.

(B). Just because Ware has had a less than stellar first half of the season does not =
other linebackers being better.

6. Lastly if you go ahead and apply your theory in regards to Ware than you should also apply it to Austin, Romo, the entire offensive line, Spencer over the majority of his career, Claiborne, and our safeties.

*how many times have you seen players in all sports have a down season only to come back with an incredible one next year?

*how many times have you seen players in all sports have a great season only to have a down season the next year?

It's impossible to say Ware is "sliding" and that his pass rush has disappeared when he has double digit sack numbers, the only true pass rusher we have, injuries across the team, poor coaching, fan disappointment, team schedule, weather, team morale, etc. Your analysis is very extreme and in no shape or form does it prove or suggest that Ware is in decline.

Sorry, but i have to disagree with your entire assessment with all due respect.

[blacknell]

okay I'll play along.

1. McRay is having a better season in terms of tackling than Ware, but we all know he is far less valuable than Ware. So just because McRay may have a better statistic than Ware doesn't mean he's better than Ware. I thought you'd understand the theory i applied.

2. Your entire assessment is based off of 1/2 of 1 season. You're ready to ship a pro bowl caliber defensive juggernaut out the door because of poor season. And let me state that Ware's "poor season" is still far better than 75% of the leagues "good seasons".

3. Your choosing to look at the negative and blame Ware and Ware only for the less than stellar start. I think many fans have been spoiled by his previous years that they won't stand for a season in which Ware isn't "dominant" by your definition. It's like Mariano Rivera and the Yankees.

4. You throw the words "best LB on this team" based on 1/2 a season.

5. Now you apply so many fallacies to your though process that it's hard to even evaluate the root of the problem, but let me try.

(A). Just because Ware has had a less than stellar first half of the season does not = his career's in decline and no longer useful or needed on the Cowboys.

(B). Just because Ware has had a less than stellar first half of the season does not =
other linebackers being better.

6. Lastly if you go ahead and apply your theory in regards to Ware than you should also apply it to Austin, Romo, the entire offensive line, Spencer over the majority of his career, Claiborne, and our safeties.

*how many times have you seen players in all sports have a down season only to come back with an incredible one next year?

*how many times have you seen players in all sports have a great season only to have a down season the next year?

It's impossible to say Ware is "sliding" and that his pass rush has disappeared when he has double digit sack numbers, the only true pass rusher we have, injuries across the team, poor coaching, fan disappointment, team schedule, weather, team morale, etc. Your analysis is very extreme and in no shape or form does it prove or suggest that Ware is in decline.

Sorry, but i have to disagree with your entire assessment with all due respect.

I got your concept with the McCray analogy, but you failed to grasp mine. I figured you were trying to insinuate that I said a defensive player with more tackles is the best. Ware used to change the game on defense and he is simply not doing that this season at all and there are times i forget he is even on the field. I never said he sucked being the 2nd best LB on this team behind Sean Lee is no knock, if i said he was 2nd behind Brandon Spikes then you could continue the rant. I still would trade Ware for 2 1st and a 3rd round pick because we could get another pass rusher and o-line help and have a heap of salary cap space saved. Also no i'm not saying that a rookie would come in and give us the same production either, but we could come across another stud. All in all I don't think JJ would move Ware though

[BigDFan85]

IMO, Spencer has had a very good year, and a less-than-stellar career...for 2012, Spencer has been pretty good and I am thankful he is there...he seems to be in a lot of places on the field (you hear his name called a lot)...I agree with Rawz that I might consider franchising him to see if he is working for a contract...the real issue with the defense is that we have had OODLES of injuries that have affected the team's ability to be a dynamic defense.

* Ratliff missed a lot of time - puts more pressure on Ware whop gets doubled even more
* Lee gone, enough said for our defensive MVP prior to the injury
* Jenkins has missed a lot of time
* Carter? who knows what his injury holds
* Church - just when we get someone that looks like they can play Safety, he gets hurt
* OTHERES - Lissemore (I had high hopes for him taking up space and being an animal on the line); Lemon (a good ST player and boy could we use him now); Johnson (Matt) - looked like he had potential to play safety and be a missing element


My point of all of this is that Spencer has been one of the consistent guys in the defense for the entire season for the most part. the defense has no continuity and it shows. Can he do it consistently? Who knows, he hasn't shown consistency from one year to the next...let's hope that he does and for Dallas...if he wants the big contract, then IMO, let him walk and find it elsewhere...if he wants to be in Dallas then sign a reasonable contract...I hope the GM doesn't overpay based on one year of better than average play...

So you want to give him another contract year to find our if he's just playing for a new contract? We all know we won't have to worry about this though. Jerry is already packing the wheelbarrow full of crisp $100's.

[thedon01]

I got your concept with the McCray analogy, but you failed to grasp mine. I figured you were trying to insinuate that I said a defensive player with more tackles is the best. Ware used to change the game on defense and he is simply not doing that this season at all and there are times i forget he is even on the field. I never said he sucked being the 2nd best LB on this team behind Sean Lee is no knock, if i said he was 2nd behind Brandon Spikes then you could continue the rant. I still would trade Ware for 2 1st and a 3rd round pick because we could get another pass rusher and o-line help and have a heap of salary cap space saved. Also no i'm not saying that a rookie would come in and give us the same production either, but we could come across another stud. All in all I don't think JJ would move Ware though

1. How did I fail to grasp what you're saying when just now you're choosing to elaborate in further detail what you meant? It's clear that you said we should trade Ware. How can someone not understand this?

2. To claim that Ware would change the game on defense is absurd and basically negating every other players ability. See when you say "Ware used to change the game on defense" implies no one else is doing anything "change worthy" on the defensive side of the ball. This is definitely not true. Now if you are stating "that Ware has been one of if not the biggest benefits to our defense, someone that we can consistently rely on" then I'd highly agree. By default that theory would prove mine because why would you ship the biggest defensive contributor out the door because he's having a slightly less than stellar 1st half of the season?? BTW how has the defense ranked this year compared to years when you claim Ware was changing the defense?

3. Who claimed Ware sucked? I think you're now insinuating something I never said.

4. You do have a point about the theory of trading an older player for a premium in draft picks, but i think you're stretching the idea that Ware would yield such a ransom. If for some reason Ware did yield 2 1st round picks and a 2nd round then I'd highly consider it, if an only if I can trust the man doing the drafting.

5. How can you come across another stud without using the draft? You stated that you don't believe a rookie could come in and give us the same production as Ware has, so free agency or the trade market are the other options. Subtract trade's because teams hardly trade player for player and using our draft picks via the supposed Ware trade would negate the value of trading him, so ultimately you're left with free agency. Where's the "stud" in free agency?

6. I do agree with your last point, but overall i believe you are displaying extreme negativity and pessimism towards a player who is arguably the best LOLB in football because he's not performing like an all pro for the 1st half of 1 season of his career, especially when this team has so many problems.

Like i said in another post/thread, that it's very hard to judge project ability of a player during this season with all the problems their facing.

Bottom line is there's 2 arguments:
(A). Ware is in decline and trade him while his stock is high

(B). Ware is having an off year like so many other players on the roster, there's plenty of distractions with poor on the field performance, etc.

[rawz]

trading ware would result in an enormous cap penalty. Im not sure we could restructure enough contracts to compensate for that.

[thedon01]

see that's one of many reasons why it shouldn't even be considered. All the trade Ware talk is fueled by negative emotions, not real logic.

[blacknell]

1. How did I fail to grasp what you're saying when just now you're choosing to elaborate in further detail what you meant? It's clear that you said we should trade Ware. How can someone not understand this?

2. To claim that Ware would change the game on defense is absurd and basically negating every other players ability. See when you say "Ware used to change the game on defense" implies no one else is doing anything "change worthy" on the defensive side of the ball. This is definitely not true. Now if you are stating "that Ware has been one of if not the biggest benefits to our defense, someone that we can consistently rely on" then I'd highly agree. By default that theory would prove mine because why would you ship the biggest defensive contributor out the door because he's having a slightly less than stellar 1st half of the season?? BTW how has the defense ranked this year compared to years when you claim Ware was changing the defense?

3. Who claimed Ware sucked? I think you're now insinuating something I never said.

4. You do have a point about the theory of trading an older player for a premium in draft picks, but i think you're stretching the idea that Ware would yield such a ransom. If for some reason Ware did yield 2 1st round picks and a 2nd round then I'd highly consider it, if an only if I can trust the man doing the drafting.

5. How can you come across another stud without using the draft? You stated that you don't believe a rookie could come in and give us the same production as Ware has, so free agency or the trade market are the other options. Subtract trade's because teams hardly trade player for player and using our draft picks via the supposed Ware trade would negate the value of trading him, so ultimately you're left with free agency. Where's the "stud" in free agency?

6. I do agree with your last point, but overall i believe you are displaying extreme negativity and pessimism towards a player who is arguably the best LOLB in football because he's not performing like an all pro for the 1st half of 1 season of his career, especially when this team has so many problems.

Like i said in another post/thread, that it's very hard to judge project ability of a player during this season with all the problems their facing.

Bottom line is there's 2 arguments:
(A). Ware is in decline and trade him while his stock is high

(B). Ware is having an off year like so many other players on the roster, there's plenty of distractions with poor on the field performance, etc.

1. The first bold makes no sense at all, because how many times have you heard Michael jordan changed the game for the bulls? Or Tom brady changes the game on offense. So by your theory your saying Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman did nothing or the rest of the offense for the Pats did nothing. All the phrase means is teams have to change the way they game plan for them and that those said players pressence alone was enough to changee the outcome of a game. Be it Ware getting a big sack and forcing a a fumble thats returned for a TD or him forcing a double team and the QB is now having to get the ball out quicker and throws an INT.

2. If Roy Williams could command two 1st round picks and a 3rd and he was an average WR then i'm sure Ware should be able too as well

[astros1981]

Ware vs Spencer isn't even close. As I've stated before, if Spencer would have been more consistent with his play during his tenure here it would have helped us alot. Didn't Spencer admit to slacking off in the past? IMO he's playing for a contract he isn't worth.

[BigDFan85]

1. The first bold makes no sense at all, because how many times have you heard Michael jordan changed the game for the bulls? Or Tom brady changes the game on offense. So by your theory your saying Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman did nothing or the rest of the offense for the Pats did nothing. All the phrase means is teams have to change the way they game plan for them and that those said players pressence alone was enough to changee the outcome of a game. Be it Ware getting a big sack and forcing a a fumble thats returned for a TD or him forcing a double team and the QB is now having to get the ball out quicker and throws an INT.

2. If Roy Williams could command two 1st round picks and a 3rd and he was an average WR then i'm sure Ware should be able too as well

He didn't command it, Jerry was just the only one stupid enough to give them that.

[thedon01]

1. The first bold makes no sense at all, because how many times have you heard Michael jordan changed the game for the bulls? Or Tom brady changes the game on offense. So by your theory your saying Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman did nothing or the rest of the offense for the Pats did nothing. All the phrase means is teams have to change the way they game plan for them and that those said players pressence alone was enough to changee the outcome of a game. Be it Ware getting a big sack and forcing a a fumble thats returned for a TD or him forcing a double team and the QB is now having to get the ball out quicker and throws an INT.

2. If Roy Williams could command two 1st round picks and a 3rd and he was an average WR then i'm sure Ware should be able too as well

you portrayed that statement as if Ware was the defense, hence the reason for reply. If that's not what you meant then please clarify.

My theory is the complete opposite, please read again. I'm saying that by your example Pips and Rods contributed too. You made it appear as if Jordan was the only contributor and or reason for changes.

You used the phrase "change the game on defense" as an adjective to describe Ware's ability on the field. You weren't making a general statement that Ware causing opposing coaches to change their defensive scheme. You were definitely trying to make the case about how valuable Ware "was". I'm not going to debate semantics, we both know what you were implying, but it's not a big deal.

Again Roy Williams was younger and like BigDFan said Jerry paying in draft picks does not set the market price for a said player, because Jones tends to act frivolously and over pay with draft picks.

[rawz]

1. The first bold makes no sense at all, because how many times have you heard Michael jordan changed the game for the bulls? Or Tom brady changes the game on offense. So by your theory your saying Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman did nothing or the rest of the offense for the Pats did nothing. All the phrase means is teams have to change the way they game plan for them and that those said players pressence alone was enough to changee the outcome of a game. Be it Ware getting a big sack and forcing a a fumble thats returned for a TD or him forcing a double team and the QB is now having to get the ball out quicker and throws an INT.

2. If Roy Williams could command two 1st round picks and a 3rd and he was an average WR then i'm sure Ware should be able too as well

he didnt give 2 first for roy williams. he gave a 1st , 3rd, and a 7th, and we got back a 6th.

[rawz]

also, in a down year for him, he has 10 sacks so far, good for 4th in the league, and is on pace for a 15 sack season....

not bad at all.

[thedon01]

good points!

[jakedajewler]

Get Jason Babin