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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin13697 View Post
    Even without the pension costs, which the company quit paying this year, experts have been commenting on the company's struggles and dim outlook for the future. They emerged from the 2004 bankruptcy more in debt than when they went in. Combine that with bad sales and poor, greedy management eating up all the profits. It's no wonder Twinkies are now extinct.
    Management is greedy but so are unions. We just hear more about management because the numbers are larger. Do you remember when the car companies were going belly up in 07' and there were stories about management? There were also quite a few stories about how the unions had continually negotiated emplyee salaries to the point where they were out of control. Guys on the line installing doors were making like $100-120 per hour.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    Management is greedy but so are unions. We just hear more about management because the numbers are larger. Do you remember when the car companies were going belly up in 07' and there were stories about management? There were also quite a few stories about how the unions had continually negotiated emplyee salaries to the point where they were out of control. Guys on the line installing doors were making like $100-120 per hour.
    The average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007.
    New York Times editorial, Andrew Ross Sorkin claimed the average employee of the Big Three makes $70 per hour.
    what's the source of that $70 hourly figure?
    It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.

    2007 figure for foreign owned factories are known to be somewhere between $20 and $26 per hour, and most likely around $24 or $25.

    Auto workers in Germany are highest paid in the world, twice as much as Americans, while their companies are highly profitable

    There is a corporate war against Unions and American workers in general
    Last edited by kevin13697; 11-22-2012 at 11:57 AM.

  3. #18
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    Tries to show why Hostess is a bad example. Explains how Hostess went out of business due to salaries...
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerbang View Post
    Tries to show why Hostess is a bad example. Explains how Hostess went out of business due to salaries...
    Wish the thread wouldn't get derailed and off topic. Twinkies is a bad example because as FOOD they are a crappy. Hopefully the parallel doesn't apply between the NHL and hockey because if it does they will go out of business because the world have moved beyond a crappy product.

    Please do not take over this thread with the analogy. You made your point; let's talk about hockey and hockey fans.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Wish the thread wouldn't get derailed and off topic. Twinkies is a bad example because as FOOD they are a crappy. Hopefully the parallel doesn't apply between the NHL and hockey because if it does they will go out of business because the world have moved beyond a crappy product.

    Please do not take over this thread with the analogy. You made your point; let's talk about hockey and hockey fans.
    Wish the thread wouldn't get off topic... then continues to rebut the analogy. I didn't see you complain when Kevin was posting lengthy posts about Hostess and Chrysler. I wonder why.

    This is about hockey. The league will suffer if salaries don't trend downwards. That's what I don't get about the gung-ho NHLPA fans. There's franchises that are suffering but fans don't give a crap. They think the owners just print money.
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  6. #21
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    Go and look up Forbe's estimated profits from last season, compare all of those profits to what the players make, then come back to me and try to tell me the owners are the greedy ones.
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerbang View Post
    Wish the thread wouldn't get off topic... then continues to rebut the analogy. I didn't see you complain when Kevin was posting lengthy posts about Hostess and Chrysler. I wonder why.

    This is about hockey. The league will suffer if salaries don't trend downwards. That's what I don't get about the gung-ho NHLPA fans. There's franchises that are suffering but fans don't give a crap. They think the owners just print money.
    The thread is about FANS and how allegiances of even the best fans are tested, sometimes destroyed for good. There are other threads about the economics.

    Quote Originally Posted by fingerbang View Post
    Go and look up Forbe's estimated profits from last season, compare all of those profits to what the players make, then come back to me and try to tell me the owners are the greedy ones.
    But that's not the thread topic. Please don't continue to derail it.

  8. #23
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    The thread is about a Canadian professor's "hunch". Because the only data he has, shows that revenues grew after 2 lockouts, which contradicts what he's trying to prove.

    There's nothing of importance in that article. Nothing that wasn't obvious.

    But you know what, the title absolutely slams the NHL. It's an eye catching title. Might as well read:

    GARY BETTMAN THINKS YOU'RE A MORON! WHO'S SIDE ARE YOU REALLY ON?
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerbang View Post
    GARY BETTMAN THINKS YOU'RE A MORON! WHO'S SIDE ARE YOU REALLY ON?
    Sure, no problem. Gary Bettman does indeed seem to think fans are morons. His actions don't show a lot of regard for the people that pay the ludicrous ticket prices, his three lockouts don't show any respect, and yes, it feels like we're on our third hijacking in his tenure.

    I have no problem saying I'm not on the side of a jerk like that who takes our interest in their business for granted. No problem whatsoever.

    So the writer is hardly writing about a "hunch". You can be dismissive of him and of NHL fans everywhere who are getting more and more fed up. Continue being dismissive though if you like. That just adds to the frustration.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    We just want the game back but it seems like a little bit of the game dies every lockout. I'm a diehard fan but I even get soured with each passing day. I miss the old game, but I guess any game will do at this point. This is a big pissing contest and when it's done there might not be anybody watching anymore.
    Perfect example of a well informed fan who even worked for the league who is frustrated now.

    The article's point is that some "super fans" will automatically come back while others will get so pissed off they won't. The NHL's miscalculation is that 3 lockouts during Bettman's tenure will be automatically forgiven by the fan base.

    If lockouts are Bettman's go-to move, I'd say that a growing number of fans are getting sick of his go-to move, and getting sick of him too.

  11. #26
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    A lockout is a labor dispute. It's not a marketing strategy, it's not done purposefully. That's why Bettman an co wanted to meet during the season but Donny Fehr refused.

    The league doesn't do this just for the hell of it. They do it because it's a necessity. If there wasn't a lockout last time, there's a very good chance the league would have folded.

    As far as superfans go, there not going anywhere despite the "threats" they make. The lockout pisses me off too but I'll be even more excited to watch the first game when it's back.
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  12. #27
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    Having worked for an NHL team I am frustrated as a fan and find myself less interested with each passing day. The teams are greedy and misguided from the top down. I lost my job because new owners came in and fired everybody including people that helped the franchise win a cup. It's all politics which is just like the lockout. As I said its a big pissing contest.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    Having worked for an NHL team I am frustrated as a fan and find myself less interested with each passing day. The teams are greedy and misguided from the top down. I lost my job because new owners came in and fired everybody including people that helped the franchise win a cup. It's all politics which is just like the lockout. As I said its a big pissing contest.
    Think of how many others have been laid off while the league stubbornly plays hard ball under Bettman's leadership. All I can say is I hope those people have all gone out and gotten new jobs because I think this one is going to be very long. I can't say I've missed the NHL. With the internet you can be anywhere in the world (I'll be abroad until mid January) and still pick up hockey: SEL, KHL, Swiss League, AHL, junior).

    There are tons of options for a hockey fix.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin13697 View Post
    The average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007.
    New York Times editorial, Andrew Ross Sorkin claimed the average employee of the Big Three makes $70 per hour.
    what's the source of that $70 hourly figure?
    It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.

    2007 figure for foreign owned factories are known to be somewhere between $20 and $26 per hour, and most likely around $24 or $25.
    Yes, thats the average. $67,000 was the average wage for a guy on the line plus some great benefits and retirement packages. There are employees that were making significantly more then that.


    Quote Originally Posted by kevin13697 View Post
    Auto workers in Germany are highest paid in the world, twice as much as Americans, while their companies are highly profitable

    There is a corporate war against Unions and American workers in general
    There are many reasons why German auto workers make twice as much as US auto workers and little of it has to do with how much management makes.

    A war does exist between corporations and unions in America, if both sides could put the decades of manipulation and provocation aside and work together it would be one hell of a start.

  15. #30
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    I agree. I feel for the guys that make the whole operation work smoothly on a daily basis. I'm not taking a side, both are wrong and both need to make an effort to get this done. I'm honestly getting pretty sick of it and will use less and less energy on following this crap. I'm just happy the jays have given me something to be excited for.

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