Peak play: Chris Paul or Magic Johnson

[Money_23]

Just saw someone say they'd rather build with Chris Paul instead of Magic Johnson. So I wonder what other people think.

Assuming Chris paul's peak are the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 seasons.

Or you can make your own comparisons with whatever criterias you want.

[JordansBulls]

Would this someone be "Ralph" who stated this?

[b@llhog24]

Cp3

[SLY WILLIAMS]

Stats will probably be close but I'd go with Magic. Size, passing, dominating a game, rebounds, assists, shooting percentage probably go to Magic.

[JordansBulls]

Cp3

How so?

[Swashcuff]

I can't put all my stock into regular season advanced stats and ignore all the other factors that made peak Magic as great as he was. Peak Magic and it really isn't much of a question to me. Whoever said that they rather build around CP3 over Magic needs to learn not to put all their stock into individual advanced metrics and how to accurately assess a player as a whole. I wonder what's their opinion on Adrian Dantley and where he ranks all time.

[Money_23]

I can't put all my stock into regular season advanced stats and ignore all the other factors that made peak Magic as great as he was. Peak Magic and it really isn't much of a question to me. Whoever said that they rather build around CP3 over Magic needs to learn not to put all their stock into individual advanced metrics and how to accurately assess a player as a whole. I wonder what's their opinion on Adrian Dantley and where he ranks all time.

Originally Posted by b@llhog24
Cp3

^

[JordansBulls]

I can't put all my stock into regular season advanced stats and ignore all the other factors that made peak Magic as great as he was. Peak Magic and it really isn't much of a question to me. Whoever said that they rather build around CP3 over Magic needs to learn not to put all their stock into individual advanced metrics and how to accurately assess a player as a whole. I wonder what's their opinion on Adrian Dantley and where he ranks all time.

Not to mention there is a big difference in having other dominant players in the league with you where they are as efficient or productive as you are which makes it tougher to separate yourself from the group. How is Magic supposed to separate himself when guys like MJ, Bird, Hakeem, Kareem, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, etc are in the league near there primes as well? Now if CP3 was doing this say in 2003 when Duncan, KG, Tmac, Kobe, Dirk, Shaq were more in there prime then it may be a better case for him. But now only really Lebron and Durant put up great numbers.

[SportsFanatic10]

magic. especially to build around, the guy could even fill in at center if need be lol.

[Ebbs]

Magic completely and utterly

[todu82]

Magic Johnson

[Chronz]

I can't put all my stock into regular season advanced stats and ignore all the other factors that made peak Magic as great as he was. Peak Magic and it really isn't much of a question to me. Whoever said that they rather build around CP3 over Magic needs to learn not to put all their stock into individual advanced metrics and how to accurately assess a player as a whole. I wonder what's their opinion on Adrian Dantley and where he ranks all time.

Not to mention there is a big difference in having other dominant players in the league with you where they are as efficient or productive as you are which makes it tougher to separate yourself from the group. How is Magic supposed to separate himself when guys like MJ, Bird, Hakeem, Kareem, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, etc are in the league near there primes as well? Now if CP3 was doing this say in 2003 when Duncan, KG, Tmac, Kobe, Dirk, Shaq were more in there prime then it may be a better case for him. But now only really Lebron and Durant put up great numbers.

Everything swash said was ok, but I don't buy your theory, can you post actual stats to back you?

[Hellcrooner]

Uh?
Seriously?

Come on.

Theres a couple PG i would take in their primes over Paul.
He is FAR from Magic who is the BEST at the position.

[b@llhog24]

I can't put all my stock into regular season advanced stats

This is a discussion of peak and nothing more, if we were talking about prime it wouldn't even a question for me to pick Magic; but the word peak in my head makes this a debatable topic. Btw Swash, regular season advanced stats? Paul over his career has shown to be a complete monster in the postseason so it isn't like there's only regular season advanced lines favoring Paul.

Rk           Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB  AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 80 80 36.3 8.5 16.4 .522 0.1 0.5 .205 6.7 7.9 .848 1.5 4.8 6.3 12.2 1.7 0.5 3.8 2.1 23.9
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 80 80 37.6 7.9 16.1 .488 1.2 3.1 .369 4.2 4.9 .851 0.8 3.2 4.0 11.6 2.7 0.1 2.5 2.3 21.1

Rk           Player  Season Age  G   MP  PER  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg  OWS DWS   WS WS/48
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 80 2904 27.0 .602 .525  5.0 13.7  9.7 47.2  2.2  0.7 15.9 26.3  124  106 12.1 3.8 15.9  .263
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 80 3006 28.3 .576 .524  2.4 10.3  6.2 52.2  3.9  0.1 12.1 25.7  125  103 13.2 4.6 17.8  .284

Rk           Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB  AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 18 18 37.0 8.1 15.1 .539 0.1 0.6 .200 5.4 6.6 .831 1.6 6.2 7.7 12.2 1.7 0.4 2.8 2.1 21.8
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 12 12 40.5 9.3 18.4 .502 0.4 1.8 .238 5.2 6.6 .785 1.3 3.6 4.9 11.3 2.3 0.2 1.8 3.6 24.1

Rk           Player  Season Age  G  MP  PER  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS  WS WS/48
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 18 666 26.2 .607 .542  5.2 17.0 11.7 46.1  2.2  0.6 13.6 23.1  129  107 2.6 1.1 3.7  .265
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 12 486 30.7 .565 .514  3.7  9.8  6.8 50.1  3.2  0.4  7.9 27.8  126  107 2.4 0.5 2.9  .289

.

and ignore all the other factors that made peak Magic as great as he was.

Lol Cp3 is special in his own right is he not? Of all the past all time greats Magic specials/games are shown the most, even over MJ imo. If we're talking about the effect that each individual player has on their teammates seeing as we don't have numbers for that my gut feel tells me to go with Magic but Cp3 is no slouch in that department. It's not like I base all of my analysis on stats despite Cp3 having a higher AST% I still believe Magic is the better passer, he's obviously a better rebounder, but after that every other facet I think I'd go with Cp3 (shooting, taking care of the ball, clutch play, defense seeing as he never made a defensive team) or a push (scoring/offense as a whole they are pretty darn close imo).

Peak Magic and it really isn't much of a question to me. Whoever said that they rather build around CP3 over Magic needs to learn not to put all their stock into individual advanced metrics and how to accurately assess a player as a whole. I wonder what's their opinion on Adrian Dantley and where he ranks all time.

Efficient players are or at least should be efficient players in any environment, but tell me do you think Paul couldn't win with the rosters Magic had? And vice versa do you think that Magic would be able to carry the Hornets any further than Paul did?

[Swashcuff]

This is a discussion of peak and nothing more, if we were talking about prime it wouldn't even a question for me to pick Magic; but the word peak in my head makes this a debatable topic.

I'm well aware of that. Still IMO its Magic without question.

Btw Swash, regular season advanced stats? Paul over his career has shown to be a complete monster in the postseason so it isn't like there's only regular season advanced lines favoring Paul.

You just said that this is a discussion of peak not prime did you not? As for Paul being a complete monster I beg to differ. He's been much like Amar'e in that regard he either plays out of his mind or fails to get into his rhythm.

Rk           Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB  AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 80 80 36.3 8.5 16.4 .522 0.1 0.5 .205 6.7 7.9 .848 1.5 4.8 6.3 12.2 1.7 0.5 3.8 2.1 23.9
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 80 80 37.6 7.9 16.1 .488 1.2 3.1 .369 4.2 4.9 .851 0.8 3.2 4.0 11.6 2.7 0.1 2.5 2.3 21.1

Rk           Player  Season Age  G   MP  PER  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg  OWS DWS   WS WS/48
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 80 2904 27.0 .602 .525  5.0 13.7  9.7 47.2  2.2  0.7 15.9 26.3  124  106 12.1 3.8 15.9  .263
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 80 3006 28.3 .576 .524  2.4 10.3  6.2 52.2  3.9  0.1 12.1 25.7  125  103 13.2 4.6 17.8  .284

Rk           Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB  AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 18 18 37.0 8.1 15.1 .539 0.1 0.6 .200 5.4 6.6 .831 1.6 6.2 7.7 12.2 1.7 0.4 2.8 2.1 21.8
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 12 12 40.5 9.3 18.4 .502 0.4 1.8 .238 5.2 6.6 .785 1.3 3.6 4.9 11.3 2.3 0.2 1.8 3.6 24.1

Rk           Player  Season Age  G  MP  PER  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS  WS WS/48
1    Magic Johnson* 1986-87  27 18 666 26.2 .607 .542  5.2 17.0 11.7 46.1  2.2  0.6 13.6 23.1  129  107 2.6 1.1 3.7  .265
2        Chris Paul 2007-08  22 12 486 30.7 .565 .514  3.7  9.8  6.8 50.1  3.2  0.4  7.9 27.8  126  107 2.4 0.5 2.9  .289

I am well aware of the numbers. I already stated that my opinion was on based on just the stats but what came along with those stats when they were at their respective bests. CP3 was better defensively than Magic at guarding his man as well as he was better at playing the lanes. His steals were greater and his TOVs were far fewer so its no surprise to see that he had a superior PER.

Let's look at the context of the teams however. Magic ran one of the best offenses in the history of basketball that season.

When you factor stats into the equation I believe its common knowledge that the better your teammates the better your efficiency. In the cases of Magic and Paul that may not hold as much water as with a player like say Kevin Martin since they are two players that legitimately make those around them better with their scoring and play making. In terms of stats I think that Magic's teammates really didn't help his as much as it would be suggested (see 09 LeBron compared to 12 LeBron for more on this).

Lol Cp3 is special in his own right is he not? Of all the past all time greats Magic specials/games are shown the most, even over MJ imo. If we're talking about the effect that each individual player has on their teammates seeing as we don't have numbers for that my gut feel tells me to go with Magic but Cp3 is no slouch in that department. It's not like I base all of my analysis on stats despite Cp3 having a higher AST% I still believe Magic is the better passer, he's obviously a better rebounder, but after that every other facet I think I'd go with Cp3 (shooting, taking care of the ball, clutch play, defense seeing as he never made a defensive team) or a push (scoring/offense as a whole they are pretty darn close imo).

Despite what the #s say I am of the firm belief that Magic is a more valueable player (all things considered) at his peak than CP3 is at his. CP3 was certainly a better shooter but he wasn't a better scorer, he was better at taking care of the ball but the offenses which were ran in LA at the time and NOH at the time were completely different. Byron Scott gave Paul (and basically any PG that he coaches) a free reign to do whatever they want with the basketball in their hand and Paul did that almost as perfectly as anyone could no knock there but given the differences in the game over the years Magic would have done an even better job at that.

Efficient players are or at least should be efficient players in any environment, but tell me do you think Paul couldn't win with the rosters Magic had? And vice versa do you think that Magic would be able to carry the Hornets any further than Paul did?

Certainly not telling you that Paul couldn't win with the rosters Magic had. I'm telling you that he wouldn't win in the way Magic won and wouldn't have the accolades to back it up. Let me put some of what Magic did in perspective by use of stats.

He played 80 games that season, and had a game score of 20 or more in an astounding 57 of them. That's 71.3%. Now if we compare that to Paul who had 45 games of a game score of 20 or greater out of his 80 games played . That's a 56.3% of his games. Honestly knowing this can we expect those Lakers to have a similar record when Paul wasn't nearly as consistent as Magic was.

Record when Magic has a >20 Game Score: 50-7.
Record when Magic has a <20 Game Score: 13-10.

Record when Paul has a >20 Game Score: 35-10.
Record when Paul has a <20 Game Score: 20-15.

This metric is by no means fool proof and it really doesn't take into account various factors my point however is just to prove the value of Magic's consistency over Paul's.

Regular Season (Lakers 65-17)
       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS  
==================================================================
Magic  80  36.3  23.9  .602   6.3  12.2  1.7  0.5  3.8  27.0  15.9

Team Offense: Lakers (1st, 115.6 oRtg)
Team Defense: Lakers (7th, 106.5 dRtg)


Playoffs (Lakers 15-3)
       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS  
==================================================================
Magic  18  37.0  21.8  .607   7.7  12.2  1.7  0.4  2.8  26.2  3.7

Team Offense: Lakers (1st, 119.9 oRtg)
Team Defense: Lakers (4th, 108.6 dRtg)


1st Round (Lakers 3, Nuggets 0)
       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  3   32.0  17.7  .646   7.3  14.3  0.7  0.7  2.0


WCSF (Lakers 4, Warriors 1)
       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  5   36.0  20.6  .638   8.0  10.8  1.4  0.2  3.4


WCF (Lakers 4, Sonics 0)
       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  4   38.5  19.8  .580   7.3  11.0  2.0  0.5  3.8


NBA Finals (Lakers over Celtics, 4-2)
       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  6   39.3  26.2  .590   8.0  13.0  2.3  0.3  2.2

In comparison of their game score the same held through for Magic over Paul with Magic having a game score of 20 or greater in 15 of his team's 18 games (83.3%) while Paul had a game score of 20 or greater in just 6 of his 12 games.

When Finals time came around Magic amped it up in a way that only true legends have. Paul has yet to show the ability to do so for

Magic realistically had one bad game in that entire post season and it came against the Warriors in game 4 where Sleepy Floyd just went ballistic scoring 51 points inclusive of 29 in the 4th quarter (NBA record) while Magic found himself in early foul trouble.

There is a reason Magic's finals performance was voted as one of the greatest ever by ESPN his game 4 finish was legendary. He upped his scoring lowered his turnovers and basically averaged damn near a triple double while playing a multitude of different positions both ends of the floor against the mighty Celtics.

Based on all we know of these players respective peaks I can't give Paul the edge on just stats. Think of it in 1986 Bird was seen as the best player in the NBA right, the very next year despite being basically the same player Magic surpassed him in that regard and was almost unanimously seen as the best in the league. Do you think Paul was that good? Best player in the NBA at that time good?

IMO Magic could have been even better than he was with the free reign that CP3 had. The Lakers essentially wanted Magic to be less of a scorer and more of a playmaker but with the eventual decline of Kareem that had to change and we saw that he was a great scorer regardless. Magic's 87 can realistically be argued as the G.O.A.T. offensive season do you think CP3's defense makes up for that?