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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Analyst View Post
    Those guys are all good hitters, but Mayer, Pierz, Avila, Santana and Doumit are all weaker at stopping opposing runners. Doumit is a backup C/DH.
    Are you suggesting that JPA is a good defensive catcher?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by con_artist View Post
    Are you suggesting that JPA is a good defensive catcher?
    I will. He started out as horrible in his rookie season and has improved significantly over these 2 years. That being said, I still want to see D'Arnaud be transitioned in to replace him.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    I will. He started out as horrible in his rookie season and has improved significantly over these 2 years. That being said, I still want to see D'Arnaud be transitioned in to replace him.
    I agree that he's improved but I can't consider him to be anything more than average behind the plate.

    Also, just a thought, but couldn't all this talk from AA of how JPA is the starter simply be an effort to bolster his trade value?

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by con_artist View Post
    I agree that he's improved but I can't consider him to be anything more than average behind the plate.

    Also, just a thought, but couldn't all this talk from AA of how JPA is the starter simply be an effort to bolster his trade value?
    I doubt it's that devious. I would suspect if you asked him about any player he'd say something similar. That isn't really an Anthopoulos specific trait either. He's going to be a "big part of the future" until he's not and then it'll be "we liked him a lot but we saw an opportunity to make our team better"

  5. #50
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    If AA is hellbent on keeping JPA then you get whatever you can for Buck just to unload his salary and redistribute it through signing a DH platoon partner for Lind....namely Gomes.

  6. #51
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    I am starting to get the feeling that both JP and D'Arnaud will appear on the roster next season. Hear me out..

    D'Arnaud begins in AAA rehabbing his knee, seeing some reps at 1B, and proving that he is HEALTHY enough to handle catching in the mlb from mid-May onward.

    Arencibia begins the season as the undisputed starter at C with Buck backing him up if he is not dealt.

    If we can believe that D'Arnaud's bat is as good as advertised, he could make an interesting RH compliment to Lind in the DH spot, to keep his bat in the line-up. Now I know a lot of people are pulling for Gomes as a RH platoon DH, but I think he'll end up signing elsewhere.

    Going forward with two young, talented catchers certainly helps reinforce the "Strength in the middle of the diamond" Philosophy.

    If D'arnaud can get start a week at 1B, DH, and catch 2-3 times a week, we could make excellent use of him, while keeping both catchers fresh.

    Arencibia would start 4 times a week behind the dish, and maybe slide in a day as DH.

    This would have Lind on the field around 5 starts a week (1B or DH) and would allow us to sit him against lefties, and ideally keep him healthy.

    If one of these guys tears the cover off the ball, they obviously get priority starts. I think it is a good insurance against injury and ineffectiveness.

    If Lind sh*ts the bed again, he becomes strictly a bench player and Arencibia and D'Arnaud platoon between DH and C (with Wilson as the 3rd C).

    I'm not sure things will play out this way, but I'd be ok keeping JP and D'Arnaud together in the bigs for a while until one forces the other out. And if we aren't going to bring in another bat to DH, I'm more than happy giving some ABs to a guy like D'Arnaud who has shown he is ready to play with the big boys.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jet11 View Post
    I am starting to get the feeling that both JP and D'Arnaud will appear on the roster next season. Hear me out..

    D'Arnaud begins in AAA rehabbing his knee, seeing some reps at 1B, and proving that he is HEALTHY enough to handle catching in the mlb from mid-May onward.

    Arencibia begins the season as the undisputed starter at C with Buck backing him up if he is not dealt.

    If we can believe that D'Arnaud's bat is as good as advertised, he could make an interesting RH compliment to Lind in the DH spot, to keep his bat in the line-up. Now I know a lot of people are pulling for Gomes as a RH platoon DH, but I think he'll end up signing elsewhere.

    Going forward with two young, talented catchers certainly helps reinforce the "Strength in the middle of the diamond" Philosophy.

    If D'arnaud can get start a week at 1B, DH, and catch 2-3 times a week, we could make excellent use of him, while keeping both catchers fresh.

    Arencibia would start 4 times a week behind the dish, and maybe slide in a day as DH.

    This would have Lind on the field around 5 starts a week (1B or DH) and would allow us to sit him against lefties, and ideally keep him healthy.

    If one of these guys tears the cover off the ball, they obviously get priority starts. I think it is a good insurance against injury and ineffectiveness.

    If Lind sh*ts the bed again, he becomes strictly a bench player and Arencibia and D'Arnaud platoon between DH and C (with Wilson as the 3rd C).

    I'm not sure things will play out this way, but I'd be ok keeping JP and D'Arnaud together in the bigs for a while until one forces the other out. And if we aren't going to bring in another bat to DH, I'm more than happy giving some ABs to a guy like D'Arnaud who has shown he is ready to play with the big boys.
    Only problem with that is you almost never want both your catchers in the game at the same time, and certainly not on a regular basis. Only way that would work would be to carry 3 catchers which rather defeats the point imo.

  8. #53
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    I think AA keeps JPA and TDA. He likes JP as the starting C and he wants a ML-ready C in AAA as insurance. Maybe JPA gets traded next off season if TDA does well in his September call-up.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jet11 View Post
    I am starting to get the feeling that both JP and D'Arnaud will appear on the roster next season. Hear me out..

    D'Arnaud begins in AAA rehabbing his knee, seeing some reps at 1B, and proving that he is HEALTHY enough to handle catching in the mlb from mid-May onward.

    Arencibia begins the season as the undisputed starter at C with Buck backing him up if he is not dealt.

    If we can believe that D'Arnaud's bat is as good as advertised, he could make an interesting RH compliment to Lind in the DH spot, to keep his bat in the line-up. Now I know a lot of people are pulling for Gomes as a RH platoon DH, but I think he'll end up signing elsewhere.

    Going forward with two young, talented catchers certainly helps reinforce the "Strength in the middle of the diamond" Philosophy.

    If D'arnaud can get start a week at 1B, DH, and catch 2-3 times a week, we could make excellent use of him, while keeping both catchers fresh.

    Arencibia would start 4 times a week behind the dish, and maybe slide in a day as DH.

    This would have Lind on the field around 5 starts a week (1B or DH) and would allow us to sit him against lefties, and ideally keep him healthy.

    If one of these guys tears the cover off the ball, they obviously get priority starts. I think it is a good insurance against injury and ineffectiveness.

    If Lind sh*ts the bed again, he becomes strictly a bench player and Arencibia and D'Arnaud platoon between DH and C (with Wilson as the 3rd C).

    I'm not sure things will play out this way, but I'd be ok keeping JP and D'Arnaud together in the bigs for a while until one forces the other out. And if we aren't going to bring in another bat to DH, I'm more than happy giving some ABs to a guy like D'Arnaud who has shown he is ready to play with the big boys.
    I'm not saying I would want that to happen (I'm kind of at a point where I want the team to choose which catcher they are going with and move one), but I could definitely see a scenario like this unfolding. It is a safe choice. Might not be the right one though.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    JPA is over-rated in my books. The guy is average on D and provides absolutely nothing on offense besides the occasional home run. I still can't believe that people think his home runs somehow compensates for his atrocious OBP and hitting in general. A 1.4 WAR last season, a career high. He's a replacement level catcher.
    The bolded seems pretty contradictory. You are saying he's 1.4 wins above replacement, and then saying that he's replacement level? I don't really think it's worth mentioning that it was a "career high", when he's basically played 2 years. And, it's also of note that he got that WAR in 372 PA's.

    HR's compensate to some degree. He's not an offensive dynamo by any means but an OPS >.700 for a catcher is alright.

  11. #56
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    Adam Lind and JPA RAKE in Arlington Park and the Rangers know it...Just sayin'.....

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    The bolded seems pretty contradictory. You are saying he's 1.4 wins above replacement, and then saying that he's replacement level? I don't really think it's worth mentioning that it was a "career high", when he's basically played 2 years. And, it's also of note that he got that WAR in 372 PA's.

    HR's compensate to some degree. He's not an offensive dynamo by any means but an OPS >.700 for a catcher is alright.
    I don't think you understand WAR. A 0-2 WAR is considered reserve level i.e a bench player. A 1.4 WAR is not good for a starter...at all. If you're concerned about P.A's then fine, in 2011 he posted a WAR of 1. And yes, it's worth mentioning a career high when the guy is 27. He's not some 24 year old youngster, like some like to pretend he is. A .700 OPS is fine for a catcher but his defense is pretty awful which is kinda the key to being a catcher. Even then we're talking about a guy who boasts a career .275 OBP. We can do better. I don't see how anyone can continue defending JPA.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    The bolded seems pretty contradictory. You are saying he's 1.4 wins above replacement, and then saying that he's replacement level? I don't really think it's worth mentioning that it was a "career high", when he's basically played 2 years. And, it's also of note that he got that WAR in 372 PA's.

    HR's compensate to some degree. He's not an offensive dynamo by any means but an OPS >.700 for a catcher is alright.
    Actually, an OPS just over 700 isn't alright even for a catcher. For catchers with at least 300 PA, Arencibia's OPS (710) ranks 19th. When you account for the park factors (Rogers Centre is favourable to RH hitters) he drops to the 20th best offensive catcher.

    By OPS the middle of the road catcher has a 764 OPS, and that catcher is Matt Wieters, a fantastic defender. Arencibia is below average defensively.

    Arencibia is not a good hitter compared to other catchers, which is extremely disappointing given the fact his bat is his calling card.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    I don't think you understand WAR. A 0-2 WAR is considered reserve level i.e a bench player. A 1.4 WAR is not good for a starter...at all. If you're concerned about P.A's then fine, in 2011 he posted a WAR of 1. And yes, it's worth mentioning a career high when the guy is 27. He's not some 24 year old youngster, like some like to pretend he is. A .700 OPS is fine for a catcher but his defense is pretty awful which is kinda the key to being a catcher. Even then we're talking about a guy who boasts a career .275 OBP. We can do better. I don't see how anyone can continue defending JPA.
    According to Fangraphs, 235 players had a WAR above 1.9. That would mean about 80% of baseball are replacement players. According to your statement. I think it is more accurate to say a replacement player has less than 0.3 WAR that would be around 15% of baseball players.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkefied View Post
    According to Fangraphs, 235 players had a WAR above 1.9. That would mean about 80% of baseball are replacement players. According to your statement. I think it is more accurate to say a replacement player has less than 0.3 WAR that would be around 15% of baseball players.
    Actually, that just proves his point. Major league teams only start 9 players (8 in the NL). That means that there are only 126 regular players in the AL and 128 in the NL. So there's a total of 254 starting players.

    When you account for injuries, and ineffectiveness in the lineup from some starters, it becomes pretty clear that there are around 235 players who are producing at an average level.

    So having a WAR below 1.9 doesn't mean they're a replacement level player. It just means that they don't have the plate appearances or innings (and in some cases, the talent) to meet the 2 WAR qualifications. In other words, they're bench players or relievers.

    Generally speaking though, a guy below 1.9 WAR isn't good enough to be a starter. There are exceptions, but these are typically your bench players who wouldn't be productive enough in a full time role. So having a WAR less than 2 doesn't mean you're a replacement level guy - it means you're potentially a bench player like a Rajai Davis or a Jose Molina. A guy like Mike McCoy would be a replacement level player, because he's just AAA filler and even playing on the bench he wouldn't rack up any value. He just fills in for injuries, whereas you count on Davis to be productive in a limited role.
    Last edited by Twitchy; 11-23-2012 at 10:06 AM.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

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