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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    ^He might be a #2 on a team like the Kansas City Royals. His ceiling is a good #3, and he hasn't hit that yet.
    He'd be the #1 on the Royals, pretty easily too.

    If this season he wasn't at least a good #3, then I don't know what to tell you. He'd be the 3rd best pitcher in your rotation since he and Buerhle are interchangable at this point imo, so I'll go with the younger pitcher who has gotten better and better.

  2. #92
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    ^No Blue Jay fan has ever said JPA is going to be a very good major league catcher..or have they ever portrayed JPA as an all-star in the making - which is quite honestly something that alot of Mets fans seem to be peddling with Niese. Gose was terrible last year in triple A? Not sure how an 800 OPS from a Gold Glove speedster CF'er who can lead the league in stolen bases is terrible. Lets also just ignore that he can do that being underaged compared to his peer group.

    The fact that you wouldn't do JPA, Gose and Synder for Niese really speaks volumes for your gross (and i cannot stress that enough) overinflated worth of Niese. This is a deal that every General Manager in baseball would do over and over again, and if they wouldn't they deserve to be fired.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    ^No Blue Jay fan has ever said JPA is going to be a very good major league catcher..or have they ever portrayed JPA as an all-star in the making - which is quite honestly something that alot of Mets fans seem to be peddling with Niese. Gose was terrible last year? Not sure how an 800 OPS from a Gold Glove speedster CF'er who can lead both leagues in stolen bases is terrible.

    The fact that you wouldn't do JPA, Gose and Synder for Niese really speaks volumes for your gross (and i cannot stress that enough) overinflated worth of Niese. This is a deal that every General Manager in baseball would do over and over again, and if they wouldn't they deserve to be fired.
    I could see Niese making an all-star team once or twice if he continues to progress. You are ignoring all the stats I gave you saying how good he actually was these past two seasons. His command has gotten better and better and he mixes his pitches well. He gets GB frequently, 51% in 2011 and 48% this year.

    Gose was terrible in Vagas period. He only hit 5 homers in that hitter's paradise an he struck out 101 times. Little power and a lot of strikeouts is a poor combo. His .288/.366/.419 line in a league that hits .278/.345/.430 is pathetic.

    If the Mets made that deal, I would just hope Syndergaard stays healthy and becomes at least as good as Niese because the other pieces are underwhelming. We had Rod Barajas before, and we have a great defensive CF in AAA already in Matt den Dekker.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    ^No Blue Jay fan has ever said JPA is going to be a very good major league catcher..or have they ever portrayed JPA as an all-star in the making - which is quite honestly something that alot of Mets fans seem to be peddling with Niese. Gose was terrible last year in triple A? Not sure how an 800 OPS from a Gold Glove speedster CF'er who can lead the league in stolen bases is terrible. Lets also just ignore that he can do that being underaged compared to his peer group.

    The fact that you wouldn't do JPA, Gose and Synder for Niese really speaks volumes for your gross (and i cannot stress that enough) overinflated worth of Niese. This is a deal that every General Manager in baseball would do over and over again, and if they wouldn't they deserve to be fired.
    I like Gose but an .800 OPS in the PCL (especially Las Vegas) is barely above average at best.

    You are talking about a league with a slash line that includes .278 BA as a whole and nearly a .430 OPS.

    Niese has improved greatly over the last 3 years and certainly could be a number 2 in your rotation (don't grossly overinflate your rotation either)

    The truth is (and you might not like this) but the market is very high for young controllable lefties with major league success. I am not comparing Niese to Gio Gonzalez but look at the haul the A's got in return last year for his services.

    If the Jays want to compete now (from all indications they want to) those trades are not unrealistic by any means.

  5. #95
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    I'm not really sure in what world having less then a 25% strikeout rate turns out to be 'a lot of strikeouts'. Or expecting a non-power hitting skill-set prospect to suddenly hit homers just because it's the PCL even anymore reasonable.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    I'm not really sure in what world having less then a 25% strikeout rate turns out to be 'a lot of strikeouts'. Or expecting a non-power hitting skill-set prospect to suddenly hit homers just because it's the PCL even anymore reasonable.
    When the nickname for Las Vegas is "Coors Field Jr." OPS is certainly an inflated stat in regards to evaluating a player.

    Slugging obviously doesn't consist of just home runs, but the ability for a guy with world class speed to get extra base hits.

    That's not an impressive OPS considering his skill set and how hitter friendly that league is.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I like Gose but an .800 OPS in the PCL (especially Las Vegas) is barely above average at best.

    You are talking about a league with a slash line that includes .278 BA as a whole and nearly a .430 OPS.

    Niese has improved greatly over the last 3 years and certainly could be a number 2 in your rotation (don't grossly overinflate your rotation either)

    The truth is (and you might not like this) but the market is very high for young controllable lefties with major league success. I am not comparing Niese to Gio Gonzalez but look at the haul the A's got in return last year for his services.

    If the Jays want to compete now (from all indications they want to) those trades are not unrealistic by any means.
    There is no way in hell Niese is better then Johnson or Morrow. Overinflating my rotation would be saying there is a 100% chance Niese is not better then Romero or Buehrle, when in actually there's only probably a 75% chance.

    You really shouldn't compare Niese to Gio. First of all Gio got a haul - even better then what Latos got. Second of all Niese is not even close to having the stuff Gio has.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    I'm not really sure in what world having less then a 25% strikeout rate turns out to be 'a lot of strikeouts'. Or expecting a non-power hitting skill-set prospect to suddenly hit homers just because it's the PCL even anymore reasonable.
    Too many strikeouts for a player with little power. At best, MAYBE he's a Michael Bourn type of player but I wouldn't count on that.

  9. #99
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    Geez, Niese sounds like a superstar in the making. Makes me wonder why you would trade this wunderkind, on a great contract, with so much potential and under team control, at all! Sounds like a cornerstone player to me.

    Look, let's be realistic. Every fan overvalues their players. It's what we do. Niese has value for the reasons that have been mentioned, but he's not King Felix here. A trade w/ TO involving JPA and a top prospect seem reasonable, but when guys start throwing around Lawrie, or 2 or 3 of our top prospects along with a current MLB starter, it just comes off as silly.

    You may not like Gose's game personally, or think Syndergaard is over-rated or whatever, but they are rated highly and have a perceived value in the league. It's the same reason Harvey or Wheeler have so much value to your team.

    If I offered you say Romero, for Murphy, Wheeler and Harvey, you'd laugh at me right? But aside from last year, Romero has been rock solid and is on a great contract. It's the same general idea (Please don't complain about the names involved, the specifics of the imaginary trades aren't what I'm trying to get across here).

    Mid-level pitchers simply don't bag MLB regulars and piles of prospects in trades. They have worth, but you're not trading Cliff Lee, or CC Sabathia here.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    There is no way in hell Niese is better then Johnson or Morrow. Overinflating my rotation would be saying there is a 100% chance Niese is not better then Romero or Buehrle, when in actually there's only probably a 75% chance.

    You really shouldn't compare Niese to Gio. First of all Gio got a haul - even better then what Latos got. Second of all Niese is not even close to having the stuff Gio has.
    Johnson has a hard enough time getting through a season (4 Starts in 2007, 14 starts in 2008, 9 starts in 2011)

    As for Morrow, he broke out last year but he was injured as well and only pitched 124 innings. He was never very impressive till last season either.

    Niese gave us 30 starts and nearly 200 innings, as for comparing Niese and Gio the only comparison i made was what young controllable LHP with major league success bring in return.

    Obviously Niese wouldn't bring in the haul that Gio did but how many quality 3rd starting pitchers can you get in the majors for 6 yrs 42 million bucks at 26 years old?
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-24-2012 at 04:13 PM.

  11. #101
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    ^This is your forum, I'll leave. I'm not going to keep on arguing against your point on how potentially Jon Niese can be a Top 2 pitcher in the Jays Rotation. Or how people think JPA, Gose and Syndergaard isn't enough for Jon Niese. Let me know when Sandy Alderson trades Niese, Gee, Murphy and Duda for a team full of Mike trouts and I'll buy the champaigne to the world series party - drinks are on me.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korac View Post
    Geez, Niese sounds like a superstar in the making. Makes me wonder why you would trade this wunderkind, on a great contract, with so much potential and under team control, at all! Sounds like a cornerstone player to me.

    Look, let's be realistic. Every fan overvalues their players. It's what we do. Niese has value for the reasons that have been mentioned, but he's not King Felix here. A trade w/ TO involving JPA and a top prospect seem reasonable, but when guys start throwing around Lawrie, or 2 or 3 of our top prospects along with a current MLB starter, it just comes off as silly.

    You may not like Gose's game personally, or think Syndergaard is over-rated or whatever, but they are rated highly and have a perceived value in the league. It's the same reason Harvey or Wheeler have so much value to your team.

    If I offered you say Romero, for Murphy, Wheeler and Harvey, you'd laugh at me right? But aside from last year, Romero has been rock solid and is on a great contract. It's the same general idea (Please don't complain about the names involved, the specifics of the imaginary trades aren't what I'm trying to get across here).

    Mid-level pitchers simply don't bag MLB regulars and piles of prospects in trades. They have worth, but you're not trading Cliff Lee, or CC Sabathia here.
    I understand your point but let's not compare prospects just yet.

    Gose is not the prospect Wheeler or Harvey is, and Syndergaard could certainly be but he is still in A ball.

    Everyone loves D'Arnaud's bat and i am guessing with the log jam of catchers AA will have to make a decision on who he is dealing (most likely Arencibia but how much can you expect for a 1 rWAR catcher, you will need more than that for Niese)

    As in regards to trading Harvey or Wheeler, Harvey has had major league success (albeit very limited) and Wheeler is regarded as a top 10 spec in all of baseball.

    You would expect more for guys that are already major league ready and are hyped that much.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-24-2012 at 03:58 PM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korac View Post
    Geez, Niese sounds like a superstar in the making. Makes me wonder why you would trade this wunderkind, on a great contract, with so much potential and under team control, at all! Sounds like a cornerstone player to me.

    Look, let's be realistic. Every fan overvalues their players. It's what we do. Niese has value for the reasons that have been mentioned, but he's not King Felix here. A trade w/ TO involving JPA and a top prospect seem reasonable, but when guys start throwing around Lawrie, or 2 or 3 of our top prospects along with a current MLB starter, it just comes off as silly.

    You may not like Gose's game personally, or think Syndergaard is over-rated or whatever, but they are rated highly and have a perceived value in the league. It's the same reason Harvey or Wheeler have so much value to your team.

    If I offered you say Romero, for Murphy, Wheeler and Harvey, you'd laugh at me right? But aside from last year, Romero has been rock solid and is on a great contract. It's the same general idea (Please don't complain about the names involved, the specifics of the imaginary trades aren't what I'm trying to get across here).

    Mid-level pitchers simply don't bag MLB regulars and piles of prospects in trades. They have worth, but you're not trading Cliff Lee, or CC Sabathia here.
    Because we badly need hitters, and he's one of our most valuable assets. JPA does not have much value imo, especially when you guys don't have much leverage with him(TDA should take over next year)

    Gose was highly rated last year because he hit a career high 16 homers and stole 72 bases. Both numbers regressed substantially and he was pretty terrible in a hitter's paradise. I doubt he's on any Top 100 lists now.

    A 26 year old lefty who has improved by the year and is under contract for 6 more seasons is very valuable.
    Last edited by YoungStuna; 11-24-2012 at 04:01 PM.

  14. #104
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    [QUOTE=Korac;24440829]
    Geez, Niese sounds like a superstar in the making. Makes me wonder why you would trade this wunderkind, on a great contract, with so much potential and under team control, at all! Sounds like a cornerstone player to me.
    Actually I do not want to trade Niese, imo he is a guy you build a very good staff along with the likes of Harvey and Wheeler. He is no super star in the making but an excellent #3 pitcher that when he is on can be a good #2. The last 2 years Niese's peripherals put him in excellent company around baseball, but obviously he is not the dominant force that some of these other guys with similar peripherals to be put in the same level as them

    Look, let's be realistic. Every fan overvalues their players. It's what we do. Niese has value for the reasons that have been mentioned, but he's not King Felix here. A trade w/ TO involving JPA and a top prospect seem reasonable, but when guys start throwing around Lawrie, or 2 or 3 of our top prospects along with a current MLB starter, it just comes off as silly.
    I mention that a deal for Gose and Syndergaard would be a deal I make for Niese, but you have to understand the skepticism others have regarding Gose in here. The Mets have 2 center fielders that could probably put up better offensive numbers than Gose, my reasons why I love Gose is that he has 3 plus tools that have nothing to do with offense, his arm, speed and defense and am one that thinks that if he can be an average offensive player at center the whole package would make him very valuable. Yet as mention he k's a ton and the Mets other 2 center field options do just that as well, but as I mention Gose is 3 years younger than those guys and I would hope that he can improve in that time.

    You may not like Gose's game personally, or think Syndergaard is over-rated or whatever, but they are rated highly and have a perceived value in the league. It's the same reason Harvey or Wheeler have so much value to your team.
    I can flip this by saying that you think Niese is over rated by the Mets brass and Mets fans, but the fact is that he is a young lefty who is under control for a long time at a relative cheap price and already has shown some good success in the majors and has been getting better and as he gets older. He is a guy that has value to just about any team in baseball as others here have mention and the Mets brass will likely not settle for just alright pieces for him. They would want 3 players back and rightfully so. You just do not give him away for guys that fill holes.

    If I offered you say Romero, for Murphy, Wheeler and Harvey, you'd laugh at me right? But aside from last year, Romero has been rock solid and is on a great contract. It's the same general idea (Please don't complain about the names involved, the specifics of the imaginary trades aren't what I'm trying to get across here).
    Before last year you could of asked for one of Wheeler or Harvey and a guy like Murphy for Romero, not both Harvey and Wheeler, but obviously the Jays value him just as the Mets valued Niese since they got similar extensions at their age.

    Mid-level pitchers simply don't bag MLB regulars and piles of prospects in trades. They have worth, but you're not trading Cliff Lee, or CC Sabathia here.
    To be fair Jon Niese has been better than Cliff Lee was at their respective age, what has gotten Lee to the next level is his improved control and that is something Niese has also improved on every year. Will he ever have as good control as Lee has now? probably not, but is not out of the realm of possibility that he could still improve on that aspect either.




    I personally would do a Gose, Syndergaard and another lower level prospect for Niese, imo that is fair value. JPA is a guy I do not mind because he is still young, but yes he is Rod Barajas without the defense, certainly is not a guy I would think the Mets will target as the key piece of a deal for one of Niese or Dickey. If it was JPA for Gee, then I would be all for it.


    In the end the Mets have 2 assets in Niese and Dickey who because both are relative cheap they can ask for a team's top prospect or one of their top 3 and other. Obviously I do not expect the Mets to get guys like D'Arnaud, Myers and guys of that ilk for them unless a team gets a bit desperate and if that happens, then the Mets should pull the trigger. If they get nothing but hole fillers, then their best shot is to just keep those guys.

  15. #105
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    If and only if the Blue Jays were willing to part with all said prospects.. Dickey would be the one they'd want.

    An ace, who honestly is not asking for too pricy of contract for a Cy-Young Winner. The Blue Jays are in win-now as we all agree.. and JJohnson is an ace when healthy, but adding Dickey would create a 1a 1b ace situation, and would be insurance incase Johnson did get injured.

    Giving up D'arnaud would be what the Mets would want, and it is realistic giving that the Blue Jays have JPA which is a more than formidable catcher option for the win-now mentality.
    #oneatatime

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