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  1. #76
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    ^Just to clarify, I don't think Niese is a 5th starter per say, his ceiling I'd say is a very good #3 on an average rotation (he's not there yet), but he'd be the 5th starter in our rotation as it stands today.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayOnBoard View Post
    If the Jays traded Lawrie for Niese I'd lose my ****. That would be an absolutely AWFUL deal for the Blue Jays.

    Yes, Lawrie hasn't done that much yet but he has shown flashes of brilliance, much more than guys like Justin Smoak has in the big leagues (does no one remember Lawrie's rookie season where he tore the cover off the ball?)

    Some of these trade offers here are downright insane. Gose, Syndergaard and JPA for Niese... Pfffff.... why not Bautista and JJ for Gee while we're at it?
    I agree that, as we've gone along, some of these trade ideas have gotten out of hand. I don't know how Lawrie was introduced to the equation, unless the poster assumed we were going to trade Wright.

    I never thought we could get JPA, Gose and Syndergaard for Niese alone. The question is, with the blockbuster filling just about all of the Jays needs for first string position players at the major league level, who in the Mets minor league system would it take to get the deal done? And maybe Niese is more pitcher than you need for a #5 and Gee would be a better fit.

    Would Gee, Familia and Den Dekker work for you? If not, look over the Mets farm system and suggest what you think would be fair. And try not to overvaslue your guys and I will do the same.
    Former B'klyn Dodger fan. Mets Maniac since 1962.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    There's a whole lot of fail in this trade. Every team's fans overrates their players but WOW. Some of these proposals are downright ridiculous. Do you think trading JPA for Dickey is a fair trade? No, didn't think so. I don't either but that's more fairer then some of the proposal's i've seen here. JPA, Gose and Syndergaard for Niese? LOL. We don't need a 5th starter that bad.
    JPA had an ops + of 89 this year, with a staggering obp of .275.
    Gose had an ops + of 70 with a obp of .303.

    Kirk Nieuwenhuis had an ops+ 91, with a poor obp of .315.

    We don't need a 5th outfielder and Rod Barajas that badly.


    ďNinety percent Iíll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent Iíll probably waste.Ē
    - Tug McGraw, on his plans for his $75,000 salary

  4. #79
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    ^only a homer would compare Anthony Gose to Kirk Niewenhuis

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    The difference is that Gose is 22 and Nieuwenhuis is 25 and while I think that Nieuwenhuis can put up better offensive numbers I just do not know if he can stay at center field specially with the foot injury he suffered.

    Also I love Gose's other tools since they are plus ones. He has a gun(This was a guy that could hit 97 mph in HS as a pitcher), can steal 40+ bases because of his speed and he will stay at center field for sure. Now you can tell me that you rather have den Dekker before Gose, but again dD is much older.

    IMO Gose can be a .260-.275/.330-.350/.375-.400 type guy who hits around 5-10 homers a year, steals around 40 bases and plays excellent defense.

    Honestly if you can get Gose and Syndergaard for either Dickey or Niese I would think about it real hard and maybe make the deal.
    I don't think you will get two top 100 prospects (Gose is likely top 50 - He was ranked 39 last season) for either Dickey or Niese. If you do, I don't want my Jays to be the ones paying the price.

    I'm not a Niese fan. I get the fact that he has four pitches. I also get the fact that he has pretty underwhelming fastball.

    I think he's a #4 in the AL East and imo if the Jays want someone like Niese they should just brink back Villy.

    Dickey is interesting. I'm not sure what his value is. I don't think it warrants a major package. But you could maybe pry away something like JPA - Osuna - Stilson from us or another team.

    Like I said in my previous post I think your organization severely overvalues it's players internally. I think posters on this board and mets fans in general need to ask themselves has it served them well? I mean you got Wheeler for Beltran which was a coup but really what else has Sandy done?

    He let Reyes go and got nothing at the deadline. He let Hairston go and got nothing at the deadline.

    As an outsider looking in and has followed the Mets since the subway series. I have ask what is the plan for you guys? Say you extend Wright and Dickey. What then? You have a couple of good prospects but it's not a deep farm (you guys were ranked 25th last season by BA).

    Do you sign additional free agents? Does Wilpon have the money for that?

    I can't speak for all Jays fans but I'm glad we have a GM who isn't afraid to make deals even if they don't always work out.

    AA didn't rebuild the farm by sitting on his hands. He was aggressive. he went out and signed FA relievers for comp picks. He traded Marcum for Lawrie.

    He traded Halladay. He swapped Wallace for gose. Traded Vernon Wells.

    I think you guys have the totally wrong attitude. You should be looking to move Dickey if you can along with Wright. Get the best offer you can.

    Bring in some reclamation products and see if you can hit on a couple to move later. Soria, Madson, Sizemore, etc. Rebuild your farm.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by boller4prez View Post
    I don't think you will get two top 100 prospects (Gose is likely top 50 - He was ranked 39 last season) for either Dickey or Niese. If you do, I don't want my Jays to be the ones paying the price.

    I'm not a Niese fan. I get the fact that he has four pitches. I also get the fact that he has pretty underwhelming fastball.

    I think he's a #4 in the AL East and imo if the Jays want someone like Niese they should just brink back Villy.

    Dickey is interesting. I'm not sure what his value is. I don't think it warrants a major package. But you could maybe pry away something like JPA - Osuna - Stilson from us or another team.

    Like I said in my previous post I think your organization severely overvalues it's players internally. I think posters on this board and mets fans in general need to ask themselves has it served them well? I mean you got Wheeler for Beltran which was a coup but really what else has Sandy done?

    He let Reyes go and got nothing at the deadline. He let Hairston go and got nothing at the deadline.

    As an outsider looking in and has followed the Mets since the subway series. I have ask what is the plan for you guys? Say you extend Wright and Dickey. What then? You have a couple of good prospects but it's not a deep farm (you guys were ranked 25th last season by BA).

    Do you sign additional free agents? Does Wilpon have the money for that?

    I can't speak for all Jays fans but I'm glad we have a GM who isn't afraid to make deals even if they don't always work out.

    AA didn't rebuild the farm by sitting on his hands. He was aggressive. he went out and signed FA relievers for comp picks. He traded Marcum for Lawrie.

    He traded Halladay. He swapped Wallace for gose. Traded Vernon Wells.

    I think you guys have the totally wrong attitude. You should be looking to move Dickey if you can along with Wright. Get the best offer you can.

    Bring in some reclamation products and see if you can hit on a couple to move later. Soria, Madson, Sizemore, etc. Rebuild your farm.

    Really couldn't have said it better myself. If you want to sit on your hands and wait on the Wheeler for Beltran deal to happen over and over and over again, you are going to be very disappointed.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    ^only a homer would compare Anthony Gose to Kirk Niewenhuis
    You're right.

    Except I didn't like his game in Lakewood either, thought his game was grossly overrated.


    ďNinety percent Iíll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent Iíll probably waste.Ē
    - Tug McGraw, on his plans for his $75,000 salary

  8. #83
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    This is a guy who struckout a third of time.


    ďNinety percent Iíll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent Iíll probably waste.Ē
    - Tug McGraw, on his plans for his $75,000 salary

  9. #84
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    ^so did Jay Bruce, Curtis Granderson, Josh Hamilton, Mark Trumbo,Mark Stanton, Mike Trout....I can keep on going on and on.

    What does that even prove? Strikeouts are the premiere indicator of being good or bad?

    and for the record Gose struck out 101 times in 420 at bats in triple A last year, considerably less then 1 in every 3

  10. #85
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    Seems like Toronto is a good fit one way or another. They have to be in a win now mentality so Dickey makes sense. I like JA Happ who would be odd man out in their rotation and they have some good young catchers.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    You're right.

    Except I didn't like his game in Lakewood either, thought his game was grossly overrated.
    You might think his game is grossly overrated but apparently minor league baseball management across all teams in each perspective league think differently. Somehow I think I'd rather take their 'scouting expertise' over yours - no offence.


    Rated Most Exciting Player in the South Atlantic League in 2009
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    Rated Most Exciting Player in the Florida State League in 2010
    Rated Best Defensive OF in the Florida State League in 2010
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  12. #87
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    ^
    but i'm sure Kirk Niewenhuis has similar accolades

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayOnBoard View Post
    Then I'd tell Sandy to shove it and I'd go sign Marcum or McCarthy for cash, keep my prospects and get close to the same value (at least in the next 2 years) than I would if I traded for Niese.

    I agree - JPA is an average catcher and Gose hasn't developed yet (but Gose is only 21 - JPA on the other hand....).

    No one in the Jays forum is high on JPA, I think you're missing the point here. No one is high on Jon Niese either.... and asking for Lawrie (who the Jays would only trade in a deal for someone like Felix) is just a joke.... no chance at all. What do you think a soft throwing lefty would perform in the AL East, away from a pitchers park? We had a soft throwing lefty, his name was Brett Cecil and he sucks. Do you want him? He has lots of years of team control too I'm mostly kidding of course, I know Niese is a far far superior pitcher than Cecil.... but Niese is at best a #3 starter with a good contract and Lawrie could be a young superstar for years... and you want MORE? I thought Jays fans overrated their players... wowzers.
    Why do you say that Niese is a soft-tosser? He's averaged 90.5 MPH on his fastball the past two seasons which is actually above average for a lefty.

    And Niese is a GB pitcher that doesn't walk many and is able to pick up some strikeouts, so he'd pitch well in any ballpark. Last season his ERA wasn't good(4.40), but his FIP(3.36) and xFIP(3.28) was among the Top 15 or so in baseball.

    This was against the Yankees this year, he was topping out at 94 MPH.http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...92969&c_id=mlb

    Niese this year flashed good peripherals once again but a much better ERA which ranked him just outside the Top 20 I believe. You don't need to throw 95 MPH consistently to be a #2 starter, especially for a lefty. I'd say at best he's a #2, and at worst he's a #4.

  14. #89
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    ^He might be a #2 on a team like the Kansas City Royals. His ceiling is a good #3, and he hasn't hit that yet.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanersen View Post
    There's a whole lot of fail in this trade. Every team's fans overrates their players but WOW. Some of these proposals are downright ridiculous. Do you think trading JPA for Dickey is a fair trade? No, didn't think so. I don't either but that's more fairer then some of the proposal's i've seen here. JPA, Gose and Syndergaard for Niese? LOL. We don't need a 5th starter that bad.
    JPA is terrible outside of the occasional homer. Gose was awful in Vagas this year and terrible in the big leagues, but he's young. Syndergaard is the only significant piece you would be giving up since TDA can come up and play C and Rasmus can play CF, but he only pitched in Low A last year. I wouldn't make that trade because Niese is going to be our #3 for the next 6 years in all likelyhood and I think we can get better players.

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