Organizational Philosophy Discussion Thread

[RedHeadsRule]

Disagree. Playoff appearances are the only good way to judge. Especially because you can adjust your resource commitment throughout the season as you see how many wins it will likely take to make the playoffs.

But if you prefer, I guess I can calculate up Hoyer's record as a GM.

Judging Hoyer at this point on playoff appearances is flawed. Out of his three seasons as a GM, he's taken over two teams that were well below .500 the year before. He did win 92 games in his first season, if that makes you feel better. Even posts you've made about what you would've done to the 2012 Cubs, you can admit had a small chance at reaching the playoffs.

Hoyer hasn't had enough time at one place to prove much.

[KyleJRM]

And I guess pitchers can just pitch free and easy with a big lead and rest up for their next start.

The primary difference would be that we have proof that such an effect isn't large for pitchers. I've never seen such proof for GMs.

[CUBluejays]

I think Jim Hendry:Jason McLeod and Ed Lynch:Jed Hoyer are pretty good comps.

Hendry had fantastic success as scouting and development director.

I sorry I missed trading Hoyer's trading Garland for Matt Karchner move. Ed Lynch just didn't understand the dynamics of baseball either.

[KyleJRM]

I sorry I missed trading Hoyer's trading Garland for Matt Karchner move. Ed Lynch just didn't understand the dynamics of baseball either.

Colvin for Stewart?

Those were pretty hideous moves (the companion being Noel for Heredia) and I remember how hard we raged on the boards back in the day about them. So maybe it's not a perfect comp. I like the Hendry:McLeod one better.

[cubswin25]

DeJesus wasn't all that great of a job. He doesn't belong in the good column. He's a sub-average OFer.

Sure he does, because he's making 4 million. Given this market he's a decent bargin and he didn't have his best year.

Meanwhile, he put together a horrific bullpen, and gave Joe Mather, Chris Volstad and Steve Clevenger jobs out of spring training. And, as you mentioned, got completely destroyed in the Stewart trade.

Bullpens are hard to put together with no money and young minor league relivers who suck(cough cough Hendry). I had no problem with Volstad or Clevenger getting jobs out of spring training either. Keeping Mather wouldn't have been my first choice, but I'm not going to freak out over him on the team either. I'll give you the Stewart trade, but everything else was either ok or good. You are giving Hendry way too much of a free pass and putting way too much blame on the guys who were stuck with his mess.

[KyleJRM]

Judging Hoyer at this point on playoff appearances is flawed. Out of his three seasons as a GM, he's taken over two teams that were well below .500 the year before. He did win 92 games in his first season, if that makes you feel better. Even posts you've made about what you would've done to the 2012 Cubs, you can admit had a small chance at reaching the playoffs.

Hoyer hasn't had enough time at one place to prove much.

Always with the excuses. He's been the primary person in charge of putting together four baseball teams. Two of them sucked and one of them seems likely to. That has to stick to him to some degree or another.

[KyleJRM]

Sure he does, because he's making 4 million. Given this market he's a decent bargin and he didn't have his best year.

So often, this sort of analysis misses the most important cost. One starting outfield spot for 1.5 WAR is not a good bargain, no matter how much he cost in money.

Bullpens are hard to put together with no money

He had money.

and young minor league relivers who suck(cough cough Hendry).

Relying on them was his choice.

I had no problem with Volstad or Clevenger getting jobs out of spring training either.

I did. And I was right.

Keeping Mather wouldn't have been my first choice, but I'm not going to freak out over him on the team either.

He was worse than a -2 WAR player. That has to stick to Hoyer at least a little bit.

You are giving Hendry way too much of a free pass and putting way too much blame on the guys who were stuck with his mess.

It would certainly look that way when fielding seriously below replacement players seems "not that bad."

[cubswin25]

Colvin for Stewart?

Those were pretty hideous moves (the companion being Noel for Heredia) and I remember how hard we raged on the boards back in the day about them. So maybe it's not a perfect comp. I like the Hendry:McLeod one better.

LOL more funny comments.

[DavidH]

I sorry I missed trading Hoyer's trading Garland for Matt Karchner move. Ed Lynch just didn't understand the dynamics of baseball either.

I guess the closest parallel would be these moves

July 29, 2010

Traded Wynn Pelzer (minors) to the Baltimore Orioles. Received Miguel Tejada and cash.

July 31, 2010

As part of a 3-team trade, traded Corey Kluber to the Cleveland Indians and Nick Greenwood (minors) to the St. Louis Cardinals. Received Ryan Ludwick from the St. Louis Cardinals. In addition, the Cleveland Indians sent Jake Westbrook to the St. Louis Cardinals.

I don't know much about the players involved to know if those ended up looking bad, but I guess not.

Just figured I'd throw the deals out there since that was the one time Hoyer was buying at the deadline.

[KyleJRM]

LOL more funny comments.

Make real arguments.

[DavidH]

Always with the excuses. He's been the primary person in charge of putting together four baseball teams. Two of them sucked and one of them seems likely to. That has to stick to him to some degree or another.

Make real arguments.

It doesn't help when you call legitimate points "excuses."

[KyleJRM]

Well, at first I said "Oh, ok, that makes it all make sense and I retract everything," but that seemed kinda silly after all this time.

[CUBluejays]

Horrendous logic being used here.

The goal is to make the playoffs as many times as possible. A World Series is the hopeful byproduct of that approach.

Even Theo himself will tell you that.

The goal is to make the playoffs as many times as possible with an elite team that can win the world series. Not to just be a one and done wild card team that if the moon and stars align right you win the world series.

[DavidH]

Well, at first I said "Oh, ok, that makes it all make sense and I retract everything," but that seemed kinda silly after all this time.

lol

[cubswin25]

So often, this sort of analysis misses the most important cost. One starting outfield spot for 1.5 WAR is not a good bargain, no matter how much he cost in money.

LOL please give it up your comments keep getting bias keeps getting worse. So DeJesus is a bad deal at 1.5 WAR at 4 million. Yet Soriano is a asset to the team and a good leftover by Hendry and a useful piece. With his 1.8 WAR last year at 18 million. That comment there just proves everyones point about you. Please go and hide now.

He had money.

Oh he did? That his bosses allowed him to spend? No

Relying on them was his choice.

Relief pitching cost money that money went to other resources.

I did. And I was right.

I'll give you that, but from reading yourself I'm sure you are wrong a awful lot.