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  1. #331
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    If we're talking about building the farm system, I think there's a pretty good case than an IFA assigned to Peoria should count while one given a spot in the MLB rotation immediately should not.

  2. #332
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    The big question for me is whose fault is it they were shorting amateur acquisitions? Hendry? MacPhail? Tribune Company?

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleJRM View Post
    The big question for me is whose fault is it they were shorting amateur acquisitions? Hendry? MacPhail? Tribune Company?
    I think it's a combination of Hendry's inability to think outside of the box and get the ownership to spend a little extra money in the draft coupled with the Tribune and Zell sales of the company that didn't feel like spending money on the amateur side of things because it didn't pay immediate dividends in the overall sale of the franchise.

    And I'm someone who was campaigning for Hendry to not get fired, so I'm not blaming him fully, but I do think he could have curbed a little MLB spending and dumped it back into the draft had he wanted to, as well. For example, the money spent on Neifi Perez and Aaron Miles and them being replaced by far cheaper options.
    U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

    I'm a Chicago Cubs, Philadelphia Eagles, Philadelphia Flyers, and a University of Kentucky fan. You may be a Dallas Cowboys fan, a St. Louis Cardinals fan, a Pittsburgh Penguins fan or a Louisville Cardinals alumn. From June 12 - July 13, we are both American. Go, go, USA!

  4. #334
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    Either way, its a 3 year, very cherry picked argument. The Rangers had done a much, much better job of mining Latin America than the Cubs had. As for the why? The Cubs spent more money in the Pac Rim and went with a quantity over quality approach in Latin America. They were typically good for one relatively decent sized bonus per year out of there. Other teams would spend 4-5 mill or more. Honestky, theres not even a right or wrong approach here. Some of the best talents, signed cheaply. (Castro as an example, getting 50k, I think). Projecting 16 year olds out can't be an easy thing to do, by any stretch, so having as many looks and info on them is obviously huge. Thats where the Cubs faiked in the past. Understaffed and hirrible facikities, even though Jose Serra is one of the most respected guys down there. The new facility will lead to many more looks at the talent and likeky help serve as a borderline shield, as teams have always attempted to hide players as much as tgey could from others.

  5. #335
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    Either way, its a 3 year, very cherry picked argument.
    99.9% sure that 2011-2013 and what they have done to the system in those years are completely and totally relevant to what the Cubs will be doing moving forward. It's not some random sample in time.

    No, its not. Its actually around 75 mill. Which is another stupid part of this argument. Gato doesn't even know the numbers.
    Yeah there's something that hurts what I'm saying. 15 million more than the already huge number I threw out there. I've worked with higher numbers during the summer, as high as 80 million IIRC.
    Last edited by SenorGato; 11-20-2012 at 12:49 AM.

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleJRM View Post
    The big question for me is whose fault is it they were shorting amateur acquisitions? Hendry? MacPhail? Tribune Company?
    Trib all the way, but Hendry did miss on some of his bonuses (Pawelek and Johnson were both overslots IIRC). That said, FO acquisitions and scouting expansion (with increased tech) were the big most common moves of the year for the Cubs. I think that's a reflection of ownership commitment more than anything else.
    Last edited by SenorGato; 11-20-2012 at 01:03 AM.

  7. #337
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    Too often political arguments are waged between staunch left wingers and right wingers, when perhaps a debate between moderate democrats and republicans would prove to be more productive. As in politics so in baseball it seems. There are several aspects to this thread that I find peculiar.

    First, all this talk about how full the stands are is crazy talk. I grew up in the pre-Jordan era when you were lucky if there was another person in your section. Then you couldn't buy a seat. Then you couldn't sell a seat. Now, the stadium is packed. Are there less people in Wrigley? Yes. Is it because the team sucks and is rebuilding? Yes. Does it matter? No. Because they will all be back.

    Second, and more important, I find this either/or conversation ridiculous. The Cubs are not a small market team. They can afford one of the highest cost structures (note - I did NOT say payroll) in baseball. There is no reason why they can't constantly rebuild while constantly competing. The Ricketts need to be smarter about it than TribCo was. And it is clear they are being so.

    As fans, and as smart baseball people, we can afford a team with the type of revenues the Cubs generate 3 years to rebuild the foundation and make the investments necessary in infrastructure, back office, draft, etc. Beyond that, if this team isn't consistently fielding a team that can go deep into October starting in 2014, I don't see how this can be seen as anything but a failure.
    Next year, we are totally going to win a playoff game.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleJRM View Post
    The big question for me is whose fault is it they were shorting amateur acquisitions? Hendry? MacPhail? Tribune Company?
    Tribune Company and then Zell.

  9. #339
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    John Stockstill also wasn't very good at drafting people.
    2001- (I think Hendry was still pretty involved)- Prior, Sisco, Theroit, Nolasco, Harris, Mitre, Soto.
    2002- 10 picks in the first 4 rounds produced- Billy Petrick, Rich Hill, Randy Wells, Hoffpauir for a grand total of 9.4 bWAR
    2003-Marshall, Fox, McGhee
    2004- Atkins, Eric Patterson, Fuld, Gallagher, Blevins
    2005-Veal for a total of 0.3 bWAR. Only player the Cubs picked that made the majors.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin Bystro View Post
    Tribune Company and then Zell.
    When you look at it from that point of view, I start to get more and more sympathetic to Hendry's reign. If he had a clone of himself as scouting director and a real MiLB budget to work with, things could have been much different.

  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleJRM View Post
    When you look at it from that point of view, I start to get more and more sympathetic to Hendry's reign. If he had a clone of himself as scouting director and a real MiLB budget to work with, things could have been much different.
    But he didn't have a clone.

    Point for Theo in learning how to network and finding clones of his that he could work with.


    "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

    - Romans 8:25

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    But he didn't have a clone.

    Point for Theo in learning how to network and finding clones of his that he could work with.
    Absolutely. Epstein is a better team president than Hendry, and it's not close.

  13. #343
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    That's the thing about being a GM: you have to be an effective leader and it goes beyond understanding what players to sign and trade for. Being an effective recruiter is as important in baseball as it is anywhere.

    No matter what the reasons are, the Cubs just weren't effective at player drafting and development for most of the last decade and it's clear that was a top priority when Ricketts was hiring a new GM.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleJRM View Post
    When you look at it from that point of view, I start to get more and more sympathetic to Hendry's reign. If he had a clone of himself as scouting director and a real MiLB budget to work with, things could have been much different.
    Hendry earned much respeck from me, a long time basher even before it was cool, for leaving the new FO far less of a mess than he will eveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrr in his life gets credit for unless Epstein feeds the idea out there.

    Castro, Barney, Soriano, Garza, Shark, and Russell were amongst the few quality talents on last year's roster. The 2011 draft haul restocked the lower minors. There's upper minors pieces who aren't Super Prospects but do seem to have a very good chance of seeing the majors and performing a role (Castillo, Jackson, Vitters, Ha, Watkins, Lake, etc....

    That said, it's illegal to say that so Epstein will have built us up from absolutely nothing but big contracts that tore the franchise down.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    it's illegal to say that so Epstein will have built us up from absolutely nothing but big contracts that tore the franchise down.
    I'm fairly certain it's not illegal to say that.


    "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

    - Romans 8:25

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