Organizational Philosophy Discussion Thread

[Max Power]

The Padres were asking for Jackson and McNutt for Headley. At the time it seemed like way too much, but now it looks like an opportunity lost.

Looks like?

[Marlin Bystro]

McNutt also pitched very well in the AFL a year ago and had just reestablished some value after an injury plagued season. Anyone that says that was a slam dunk trade a year ago isn't living in reality.

[SenorGato]

Since Kyle has to field the "WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE!?!!?!" question every couple of hours, I'd like to pose a series of questions I've asked multiple times and never gotten a straight answer to:

How many years of Castro/Rizzo do you guys think is necessary to waste before moves are allowed to be made to give them some support?

How many more internal players are necessary to put out before signing FAs is OK?

Let's look at Darwin Barney - a solid starter and prime aged player who is not high ceiling enough to start for 10 years with the Cubs. Does this mean the Cubs can not win with Darwin Barney manning second base? If they can win, what does this say about how long a Core should be together? Do you need a guy who will be a 10 year starter at the majority of positions to be a Core/Foundation member?

[CUBluejays]

Yeah Dallas Green sucked at bringing in young talent. I mean he traded for Ryne Sandberg. Drafted Maddux, Grace, Palmerio, Moyer, Girardi. I'd imagine that a core of Maddux, Sandberg, Grace, Palmerio, Moyer might have done ok for the Cubs. Hendry got the Cubs within 5 outs of the World Series with home grown talent leading the way. Yep, stupid for Cubs fans to look at that and think it might be the way to go.

[gaughan333]

Since Kyle has to field the "WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE!?!!?!" question every couple of hours, I'd like to pose a series of questions I've asked multiple times and never gotten a straight answer to:

How many years of Castro/Rizzo do you guys think is necessary to waste before moves are allowed to be made to give them some support?

How many more internal players are necessary to put out before signing FAs is OK?

Let's look at Darwin Barney - a solid starter and prime aged player who is not high ceiling enough to start for 10 years with the Cubs. Does this mean the Cubs can not win with Darwin Barney manning second base? If they can win, what does this say about how long a Core should be together? Do you need a guy who will be a 10 year starter at the majority of positions to be a Core/Foundation member?

Too complicated, too many moving parts

[Mell413]

Jackson was a top 30 prospect last offseason, many were calling for him to be the every day starting CF'er. He had 200 AB's where he K'ed too much but it was neither expected he'd continue to strike out that much nor were people that worried about it.

Brett Jackson has not been "not worth caring about" for 2 years. In fact, he's still not been "not worth caring about" for one year. He's still a prospect with hope, just look at some of his projections for the 2013 season.

Secondly, Trey McNutt, last off season, was this teams only pitching prospect worth a damn coming out of A ball. His velocity was reportedly fine it was just his control. He was one year removed from being a top 100 prospect.

At the time, Jackson and McNutt sounded like too much. Now, it totally sucks that both continued to tank, but had Jackson come in and given you a rookie season where people thought he might (.265/.320/.410), and McNutt had rebounded to even looking like a mid rotation prospect, and had Headley not had an amazing break out season, that deal would have been too much. All of those outcomes were also, quite in the realm of possibility. It sucks the luck tipped the other way, but I don't blame our front office for not doing that trade last winter. Didn't blame them then, wont blame them now. You'd have needed a crystal ball to see all that.

Brett Jackson was striking out enough to the point where there was reason to be concerned going forward. He struck out almost 30% of the time in 2011. I think there was enough there. Bill James is usually optimistic with his projections. I don't think you can count on a .344 BABIP from him either. I just don't think he can make enough contact to matter. Mcnutt hasn't put up a good season since 2010. Given the concerns of both those two players and the shallowness of the 3B position I can't think of many reasons not to make that deal.

[SenorGato]

Jackson was a top 30 prospect last offseason,

I think we've done this before, but the highest he's been is 32 for Baseball America. Maybe you cite something different, but 32 is outside of the top 30.

He also struck out 138 times in 512 PAs between AA and AAA - 27% as a former first round pick, college trained hitter. 64 of them came in 215 AAA PAs - 30%.

It doesn't take hindsight to say Jackson was a little overrated as a prospect. I've been saying he was overrated ever since he piled up Ks on his initial AAA callup.

Hendry got the Cubs within 5 outs of the World Series with home grown talent leading the way.

Non-internal key talents on that 2003 team:

Aramis Ramirez
Karros
Grudz
Clement
Lofton
Alou
Sosa
Miller
Remlinger
Guthrie

[Max Power]

Yeah Dallas Green sucked at bringing in young talent. I mean he traded for Ryne Sandberg. Drafted Maddux, Grace, Palmerio, Moyer, Girardi. I'd imagine that a core of Maddux, Sandberg, Grace, Palmerio, Moyer might have done ok for the Cubs. Hendry got the Cubs within 5 outs of the World Series with home grown talent leading the way. Yep, stupid for Cubs fans to look at that and think it might be the way to go.

1. Getting close means nothing.
2. Unless you count Doug Glanville, that team got exactly zero ABs from homegrown position players that entire postseason

[SenorGato]

Too complicated, too many moving parts

See, and this is why this debate can go nowhere. It's just passing the time until they do something to better the MLB roster, and that will happen sooner rather than the hoped for later.

Kyle's answered that question before btw. It's just a ridiculous question to constantly have to field, and no answer is indisputable.

[gaughan333]

Wait getting close means nothing, but winning 75 does?

[gaughan333]

See, and this is why this debate can go nowhere. It's just passing the time until they do something to better the MLB roster, and that will happen sooner rather than the hoped for later.

Kyle's answered that question before btw. It's just a ridiculous question to constantly have to field, and no answer is indisputable.

Too complicated

[SenorGato]

1. Getting close means nothing.
2. Unless you count Doug Glanville, that team got exactly zero ABs from homegrown position players that entire postseason

This is going to go into the abyss so I'd like to acknowledge it before it does.

[Max Power]

Wait getting close means nothing, but winning 75 does?

If people are *****ing about a team like the 2008 one as being built the "wrong way" then yes.

[SenorGato]

Wait getting close means nothing, but winning 75 does?

Does your position change once its allowed to be fully acknowledged that that 2003 team was 3 homegrown pitchers, half a season of a homegrown CF, and then a whole lot of outside talent?

Or just this:

If people are *****ing about a team like the 2008 one as being built the "wrong way" then yes.

Also: 75 wins is based on yet another thing made up and put out as a legitimate point and fact. There's no actual science or math in that, someone just said buying FAs make this team a 75 win team and somehow that was allowed to be treated as legitimate.

[1908_Cubs]

1. Getting close means nothing.
2. Unless you count Doug Glanville, that team got exactly zero ABs from homegrown position players that entire postseason

While zero AB's were turned in by "home grown" players, we did have plenty of AB's turned in by proxy of our minor league system. It was Bobby Hill (drafted by Cubs) who was dealt for Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton. Sammy Sosa had essentially been here for life and was dealt for in the early 90's for a home grown talent. Alex Gonzalez was traded for by giving up a minor leaguer (home grown) and Felix Heredia. Also, don't forget, the opening day 1b was Hee Seop Choi, who was home grown and was doing fair well.

And then you had our playoff SP, which included Prior, Wood and Zambrano, all of whom were home grown, on top of Matt Clement, who was traded for using minor leaguers.

You can attribute a good chunk of the 2003 Cubs success to their own home grown talent, either by actual contribution on the roster, or by trade. 100% of the SP IP in the playoffs were turned in directly by pitchers who were drafted by the Cubs, or, by means of trading for players using prospects...drafted by the Cubs.