Organizational Philosophy Discussion Thread

[davell]

Kyle: Name 5 teams that had less talent than the Cubs throughout their organization heading into 2012. Continuing to harp on the Cubs not having that poor of talent, doesn't make it true. And thinking its easy to make up ground based on spending money immediately and not addressing the major issues of the organization is extremely BacktoBanksish.(reference Kyle and Gato will get, GoCubs will cringe over and others won't have a clue)

[davell]

Look, no matter how the other side spins this, we've tried the other way many times, this is a first. This isn't MacPhail saying we're building from the ground up, because there wasn't an organizational plan to go with the words he said. This has been a complete teardown, a complete shift in philosophy and something a major market team has never done previously. It's completely a moot point, if we won 61 games in 2012, versus 75, 70 games in 2013, versus 82, and 79 games in 2014, versus 86, if the end result is 94 wins in 2015, no matter how it was obtained. Because its not spin, that if this happens to be the case, it means the first way is going to be tge healthier organization of the two for the longterm.

[gaughan333]

If they would gotten guys like Cespedes, Headley Gonzalez, Darvish

If you mean Gio Gonzalez, I don't think the cubs had the farm system to pull that trade off. I'm not sure what the Padres were asking for Headley so I wont comment on that. I know, for some reason putting in offers on Cespedes and Darvish doesn't count to some of you, which I still don't agree with, but you act like they just sat on their *** all off season. Oakland gave Cespedes a contract that didn't make sense at the time. Few thought that he would be able to come to the MLB and contribute like that immediately. Darvish ended up with a cost of what, about 108 million over 6 years? I'd rather put that amount of money towards someone like greinke who is more known and tested.

[Marlin Bystro]

The Padres were asking for Jackson and McNutt for Headley. At the time it seemed like way too much, but now it looks like an opportunity lost.

[gaughan333]

The Padres were asking for Jackson and McNutt for Headley. At the time it seemed like way too much, but now it looks like an opportunity lost.

Hindsight...that's unfortunate. Have their demands gone up a ton now?

[1908_Cubs]

Hindsight...that's unfortunate. Have their demands gone up a ton now?

Could only assume so....

[gaughan333]

Could only assume so....

To clarify, i mean a ton from what those two were viewed as last year

[Marlin Bystro]

Hindsight...that's unfortunate. Have their demands gone up a ton now?

Yeah I don't think they will trade him now. They might actually believe they can be competitive next year. I really like how they are set up right now. If Cashner stays healthy I predict that he competes for the Cy Young next year.....Bold this and come back to it in August.

[1908_Cubs]

To clarify, i mean a ton from what those two were viewed as last year

Same response.

Headley turned in a 7 win season. You can only assume the Padres would ask for more, especially because I don't think they're all that inclined to move him. They've been resigning, not selling off. Couple those two things together and I don't think Headley's what you'd call "very attainable" right now.

[Mell413]

Well even if Headley was/is only a 4 win 3B I still make that trade 100 times out of 100. That news certainly sucks if that indeed was the case.

[gaughan333]

Yeah I don't think they will trade him now. They might actually believe they can be competitive next year. I really like how they are set up right now. If Cashner stays healthy I predict that he competes for the Cy Young next year.....Bold this and come back to it in August.

I wouldn't be very surprised if they were competitive next year. Grandal's PED suspension hurts a little though. I expect a better year out of Yonder alonso for one. That is a bold prediction on Cashner, but will be funny if it comes true.

[gaughan333]

Well even if Headley was/is only a 4 win 3B I still make that trade 100 times out of 100. That news certainly sucks if that indeed was the case.

At that time he had gotten 4 WAR once.

[Mell413]

WAR doesn't take into account park factors. I thin Headley would have been a 4 win guy more than once if he wasn't playing in Petco or being put in LF. Plus Jackson/McNutt haven't been worth caring about for around 2 years. I don't understand the justification for not making that deal

[SenorGato]

The Padres were asking for Jackson and McNutt for Headley. At the time it seemed like way too much, but now it looks like an opportunity lost.

Heh heh heh.

Look, no matter how the other side spins this, we've tried the other way many times,

Hey what's up kettle? I'm pot! Why are you so black?

No matter how you guys like to rewrite history, the Cubs have tried the "we're going to build the best farm system everz, our prospects will be amazingz/a Golden Generation in the sport, and boy will that lead to profit(!)" approach. It's failed often. Not just McPhail and Hendry, who conveniently can be brushed aside with "no organizational plan" (whatever that means), but with Dallas Green in the '80s, Holland in the 60's (though this was pre-FA) ...these aren't/weren't dumb people, as much as that needs to be part of your argument to work.

[1908_Cubs]

WAR doesn't take into account park factors. I thin Headley would have been a 4 win guy more than once if he wasn't playing in Petco or being put in LF. Plus Jackson/McNutt haven't been worth caring about for around 2 years. I don't understand the justification for not making that deal

Jackson was a top 30 prospect last offseason, many were calling for him to be the every day starting CF'er. He had 200 AB's where he K'ed too much but it was neither expected he'd continue to strike out that much nor were people that worried about it.

Brett Jackson has not been "not worth caring about" for 2 years. In fact, he's still not been "not worth caring about" for one year. He's still a prospect with hope, just look at some of his projections for the 2013 season.

Secondly, Trey McNutt, last off season, was this teams only pitching prospect worth a damn coming out of A ball. His velocity was reportedly fine it was just his control. He was one year removed from being a top 100 prospect.

At the time, Jackson and McNutt sounded like too much. Now, it totally sucks that both continued to tank, but had Jackson come in and given you a rookie season where people thought he might (.265/.320/.410), and McNutt had rebounded to even looking like a mid rotation prospect, and had Headley not had an amazing break out season, that deal would have been too much. All of those outcomes were also, quite in the realm of possibility. It sucks the luck tipped the other way, but I don't blame our front office for not doing that trade last winter. Didn't blame them then, wont blame them now. You'd have needed a crystal ball to see all that.