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  1. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    True about Ellsbury and Bourn. But that is why I also mentioned Gordon. Could add Upton, Headley or Markakis to that list too. My point is why not trade Garza for proven major league talent and try competing next year by also adding Bourn. And teams trade pitching for hitting and vice versa often. It is not that rare. Again any deal for major league hitters would also have to be tweeked one way or the other. I am not talking straight up on any deals. Just suggesting getting major league talent for Garza.
    The MLB talent received for Garza will likely be added, tacked on talent. Not talent those teams are going to use and need for their playoff run. We're talking like a Joe Buck in the Dickey trade.

    Teams who are going to be trading for one year of Garza are looking to make the playoffs. While he certainly helps, almost all of the gains gotten from Garza are then lost when you give up Headley or Markakis, or Upton.....it doesn't make any sense, what-so-ever for a team looking to make the playoffs to give the Cubs back proven MLB talent.

    If Garza is traded....it'll be for prospects. Only way it make sense, really.
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  2. #992
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    I could see a fallen former top prospect like Rick Porcello, Brian Matusz/Zac Britton, or Andrew Miller coming back in a Garza trade. The ML isn't obligated to be a Buck type, though it's possible.

  3. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    The MLB talent received for Garza will likely be added, tacked on talent. Not talent those teams are going to use and need for their playoff run. We're talking like a Joe Buck in the Dickey trade.

    Teams who are going to be trading for one year of Garza are looking to make the playoffs. While he certainly helps, almost all of the gains gotten from Garza are then lost when you give up Headley or Markakis, or Upton.....it doesn't make any sense, what-so-ever for a team looking to make the playoffs to give the Cubs back proven MLB talent.

    If Garza is traded....it'll be for prospects. Only way it make sense, really.
    Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think it does make sense for a team to deal for Garza if they want to part with an offensive player. Upton, as an example is not in favor in Arizona. If they have someone they want to make a spot for they can deal him and get a pitcher. If S.D. thinks they are not going to sign Headley, and has someone they can plus in to play 3rd, same thing. Although the Cubs will have to add to that deal. I am not saying it will happen. IMO the Cubs want the minor league talent instead of major league talent for Garza. But if they wanted to get someone to plug into the line up it does make sense for some teams to do something like that. Offense for pitching happens often. Just did a few days ago when Morales was traded for Vargas. So if the Angels dealt Morales does that mean they do not want to make the playoffs?

  4. #994
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    Morales was redundent for the Angels, what your talking about woould be closer to Trout for Price.

  5. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUBluejays View Post
    Morales was redundent for the Angels, what your talking about woould be closer to Trout for Price.
    Fine, and Upton is redundant with Arizona. Arizona had a lot of outfielders. Again, not saying the Cubs will do it. IMO they will get minor league talent for Garza. But if they wanted to they could. And there will be a team out there who will trade hitting for pitching. And nothing about Garza for Upton or another offensive player remotely resembles Price for Trout.

  6. #996
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    The D-backs may not like Upton, but he isn't redundant. If Upton stays on the D-backs Ross isn't pushing him to the bench. Morales likely wouldn't have started for the Angels if he stuck around. Yes, Trout for Price is in a whole different universe than mere mortals, but on the Angles he'd be closest to talent to Upton. Trout fot Garza just sounded stupid so I upgraded him too.

  7. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaughan333 View Post
    I thought texas got that pick as compensation, not from the cubs
    You are right, Byrd was only a Type B free agent, so he was simply a compensatory pick for the Rangers, and not a forfeiture of a pick by the Cubs.

  8. #998
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    Theo Epstein spoke with David Kaplan. Here's the video.

    Also, I considered posting just the Epstein quotes as excerpts. Instead, here's an entire article by David Haugh:

    A persistent father leaned into the Cubs dugout Tuesday at Hohokam Stadium to get Theo Epstein's attention.

    For several minutes in excruciating detail, the man asked Epstein's advice in dealing with a son struggling to make his baseball team. Practicing what he preaches to fans, Epstein patiently listened to someone out there who still thought the Cubs president had all the answers.

    "I'd like to help but I don't know the situation,'' Epstein said politely.

    Refreshingly, Epstein knows what he doesn't know. As Epstein closes in on 40 next December and distances himself from his rock-star persona in baseball, self-awareness remains the self-deprecating executive's biggest strength. So Epstein didn't dare predict how a 2013 season he framed as a playoffs-or-sell-off proposition will unfold — but interestingly did share his pragmatic plan in case it unravels.

    "What I want to avoid is the middle ground,'' Epstein said. "It'd be nice to make the playoffs or get a protected draft pick (awarded the bottom nine teams). We're not hiding that. There's no glory in 78 wins instead of 73. Who cares?

    "We're going to see where we are and take a real cold assessment in the middle of the season. If we have a legitimate chance to push for a playoff spot then 2013 can become our primary focus. If we think a playoff spot's not in the cards, there will be no concern for appearances or cosmetics whatsoever. We'll continue to address our future and trade off some pieces that would keep us respectable.''

    Consider yourself warned, Wrigleyville. If you thought last September was bad, this could look worse. This could result in a month ugly enough to make rooftop owners want to block their own views.

    "Those are the type of things we have to be tough enough to withstand,'' Epstein said. "I hope we surprise some people. There is definitely more talent here than people give us credit for.''

    If you believed in baseball Theocracy when the Cubs hired Epstein in October 2011, nothing has shaken that belief. Not 101 losses. Not dumping Ryan Dempster or delays in Wrigley Field renovation. Not anything.

    Epstein still has the right answers because he asks the essential question nobody in charge ever dared: Why not try building a winner from the bottom up by revamping the minor league system? If anything has changed about Epstein since he arrived in Chicago billed as the savior, it might be the 39-year-old has become less guarded and even more introspective as he embraces the city's "Midwestern sensibility.''

    That term came up during an easygoing conversation when Epstein explained why Cubs fans readily accept sacrificing seasons in the name of winning in 2015. Why can Epstein get away with placing minor league development ahead of major league success in a major market?

    "We're being transparent and they're responding by giving back faith, belief and energy,'' Epstein said.

    Credit fans who enjoy watching young players grow up and the Cubs' failure to win the other way by investing in overpriced free-agents, Epstein reasoned. It says everything about the state of the Cubs that the highlight of Epstein's tenure came last fall in Arizona when he attended an instructional league workout and finally detected "The Cubs Way.''

    "It was really invigorating,'' Epstein said. "I know this sounds silly coming off the year we had but we are really clicking on all cylinders in scouting and player development.''

    Baseball America agrees, ranking four Cubs prospects among the game's top 100. One baseball executive projected the Cubs could have six by next spring. Everybody in Cubdom has heard of phenoms Jorge Soler, Albert Almora and Javier Baez. Most days, Epstein stares at his computer watching video of minor leaguers in search of the next Starlin Castro or Anthony Rizzo.

    Speaking of Rizzo, Epstein invoked his name during one of those intermittent bouts of introspection. Apparently trading for Rizzo, a former Red Sox draft pick, represented one of two things every new executive does after taking over a team.

    "Typically, they make a pretty good trade with a player they're familiar with (Rizzo) and, two, they'll screw up a trade because they won't have the first-hand knowledge you need with some players in their own organization,'' Epstein said. "We definitely did that.''

    The rare mistake Epstein admitted came in December 2011 when the Cubs traded outfielder Tyler Colvin and infielder D.J. LeMahieu to the Rockies. Another happened when the Cubs left Ryan Flaherty unprotected in the Rule 5 draft and the Orioles signed the second baseman, who started in the playoffs.

    "We fell into some familiar traps,'' Epstein said.

    They will fall some more, Epstein acknowledged. But the encouraging difference in Epstein's regime is he focuses less about the Cubs getting up than staying on top once they do.
    Last edited by Yagyu+; 02-27-2013 at 01:02 AM.

  9. #999
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    I'm the biggest LeMahieu fan on the Internet and I often forget he exists nowadays. OTOH, he would be peeeeerfect as the backup IFer as he can play everything but catcher.

    What he said about making a very cold call on the team's chances in the mid-season is fine with me. Teams got plenty of trade bait to make some moves either way.

    This is a nominee for best thread of 2012. The Cole Hamels thread or w/e it was called is close competition. They're both connected.

  10. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    What he said about making a very cold call on the team's chances in the mid-season is fine with me. Teams got plenty of trade bait to make some moves either way.
    I definitely agree. I think the biggest mistake a front office can make is falling into the trap of being an overly optimistic fan of your own team. I don't think Hoyer or Epstein were hired to do that. I like the idea of them building the best team they can by April 1st, taking stock in July, and then deciding if this is a year when the final W-L is the measure of success or not. I'd say I agree that there isn't a big difference between 73 and 78 wins and I'd even rather win 70 than 80 if, by selling off, they can better help themselves a team that looks like an 83-85 win team on paper by next April.

  11. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    What he said about making a very cold call on the team's chances in the mid-season is fine with me. Teams got plenty of trade bait to make some moves either way.
    Yeah, it's pretty difficult to find fault in that line of thinking.

  12. #1002
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    I find this quote from Theo rather telling:

    It'd be nice to make the playoffs or get a protected draft pick (awarded the bottom nine teams). We're not hiding that. There's no glory in 78 wins instead of 73. Who cares?
    He is saying what many of us have actually said and felt. We'd rather get a good draft pick as opposed to 5-7 meaningless wins. Nothing new there really but just sort of interesting that he was so blunt about it.

  13. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrandedCub View Post
    I find this quote from Theo rather telling:



    He is saying what many of us have actually said and felt. We'd rather get a good draft pick as opposed to 5-7 meaningless wins. Nothing new there really but just sort of interesting that he was so blunt about it.
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  14. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrandedCub View Post
    I find this quote from Theo rather telling:



    He is saying what many of us have actually said and felt. We'd rather get a good draft pick as opposed to 5-7 meaningless wins. Nothing new there really but just sort of interesting that he was so blunt about it.
    Is that an actual quote? I hadn't seen Theo be so brutally honest before this season. We all know it's true though, and makes sense. If you decide to sell, not only sell for good prospects, but also to sabotage the rest of the season.


  15. #1005
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    Depending on the makeup of the team I think there could be a difference between 73 and 78 wins. Maybe not so much for us as fans, but I think it could make a difference to the players. If we are going to try and build around guys like Castillo, Barney, Rizzo, Castro, etc then I would like to see them get as many wins as possible. Are those extra wins and picking lets say 9th worth giving up let's say the #3 pick I'm not sure, but I don't think it's as simple as Theo is making it seem. There have been scenarios recently where the team played well later in the season and it carried over into the next year.

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