Do you think these stats are valuable and why or why not?

[Jeffy25]

The catcher has very little control on how well a pitcher does. He may call the pitches, but it's the pitcher who does the work. It's like saying "you need to take the wind and sun into account because they make a difference in how the pitcher does." The difference a catcher or pitching coach or whatever makes while one is pitching is minimal.

yup, exactly.

The catcher may call the pitches (and he doesn't with all pitchers, there are plenty of veteran pitchers that call their own games, Verlander for example), but he is simply doing the catching. He isn't the one actually throwing the pitches, and facing the hitter. He doesn't impact K's and BB's enough. We know this after 100+ years of data and the realization that catcher don't impact many things, like K/BB etc. They just don't. They are crazy important, moral leaders, and are crucial consistently in a number of situations (can I throw this breaking ball with confidence with two outs and a runner on third?). But in terms of the pitcher actually executing his pitches, no. That's up to the pitcher himself.

[thefeckcampaign]

Seriously?


1. They are two completely different seasons
2. They are two completely different teams


To elaborate

1. Carlton's season was one for the ages, over 346 innings, 30 complete games, one of the highest WAR seasons ever by a pitcher, ever in the history of the game. If was, in every since of the word. Epic.

Carlton also received 155 runs of support to help him get 27 wins, and he had 41 starts.

Greinke received 123 runs of support in 33 starts.

8 more starts, and he pitched 140 less innings.

Greinke supported a 4.75 K/BB, Carlton a 3.56 and Greinke had a better ERA+ (205 to 182)

But the huge difference is that Carlton got 8 more starts and pitched 140 more innings. Of course he is going to impact more games.


2. Completely different teams. Just one stat to share.

The Royals, outside of Greinke, allowed 778 runs in 1197 innings (5.85 ERA)
The Phillies, outside of Carlton, allowed 551 runs in 1054 innings (4.70 ERA)

That alone should give you an idea.



These two answers shouldn't even need explanation, they are two very different seasons with very different circumstances surrounding them.

The run support difference is 3.78/game to 3.72 in Carlton's favor. Not that much of a difference with 2 teams with incredibly bad records. Cartlon's 27 wins raises questions to Greinke's 16 that '09 year. Many would wonder how Greinke, this amazing Cy Young winner with an ERA+ of 205 that was well over Carlton's 182, didn't help his team as much. A Royal's team with even more 6 wins than the Fight'n's.

How different? Different enough that the lack of wins falls more on Greinke than it does his team.

[jej]

The run support difference is 3.78/game to 3.72 in Carlton's favor. Not that much of a difference with 2 teams with incredibly bad records. Cartlon's 27 wins raises questions to Greinke's 16 that '09 year. Many would wonder how Greinke, this amazing Cy Young winner with an ERA+ of 205 that was well over Carlton's 182, didn't help his team as much. A Royal's team with even more 6 wins than the Fight'n's.

How different? Different enough that the lack of wins falls more on Greinke than it does his team.

I think you are forgetting a fundamental part of the game: the team with more runs wins. We can look at each game and see if they would have won or lost. This isn't some mystical thing that we can't grasp. If Greinke had more run support, he would have won more games than he did. If Carlton had less, he would have won less. It's pretty simple.

Do you honestly think that in 2010, Felix was not the best pitcher in the Al because he only won 12 games? Was Phil Hughes, who won 18, better? You have yet to answer that.

[Jeffy25]

The run support difference is 3.78/game to 3.72 in Carlton's favor. Not that much of a difference with 2 teams with incredibly bad records. Cartlon's 27 wins raises questions to Greinke's 16 that '09 year. Many would wonder how Greinke, this amazing Cy Young winner with an ERA+ of 205 that was well over Carlton's 182, didn't help his team as much. A Royal's team with even more 6 wins than the Fight'n's.

How different? Different enough that the lack of wins falls more on Greinke than it does his team.

140 innings, and 30 complete games.


You have got to stop looking at wins, Carlton's season was better than Greinke's because he pitched at that elite level for 66% more innings than Greinke did.

I don't even know what you are arguing anymore. They are completely different seasons by completely different players. You can't compare or raise the value, or dismiss the value of one or the other based on their wins. Hell that's the entire thing we are arguing at this point, that their wins tell you absolutely nothing.

[salukisam]

It's safe to say that MLB won't be hunting this forum for future employees

[metswon69]

It's safe to say that MLB won't be hunting this forum for future employees

Shucks!! Really?

I had my resume ready and everything...

[jej]

Talking to sabr or tradie guys?

[Nomar]

They only mean anything to the old ignorant writers who vote for MVP and Cy Young.

[MetsFanatic19]

It's safe to say that MLB won't be hunting this forum for future employees

http://images.wikia.com/meme/images/7/73/O_rly.jpg

[thefeckcampaign]

I think you are forgetting a fundamental part of the game: the team with more runs wins. We can look at each game and see if they would have won or lost. This isn't some mystical thing that we can't grasp. If Greinke had more run support, he would have won more games than he did. If Carlton had less, he would have won less. It's pretty simple.

Do you honestly think that in 2010, Felix was not the best pitcher in the Al because he only won 12 games? Was Phil Hughes, who won 18, better? You have yet to answer that.

You guys are all about percentages here. Are you seeing the difference here? 3.78 to 3.72 is nothing. What? So the use of percentages isn't favorable to your argument so it is not usable, but those other percentages are good enough to use to allow Greinke to win the CYA in the first place. Sorry, I don't buy that.

If Greinke was so great that year, he should have won more games. If Carlton can win 27 games with similar offensive support, Greinke should have won more than 16. No matter what his excuse is, lack of innings etc. He should have pitched his team to victory more times if he was truly the best in his league that year. If he didn't, then it is sad state of league that someone who is considered the best, and may as well have been that year, cannot do that.

In the case of Felix, I don't know enough about that season's other candidates to comment, but the extreme lack of wins makes me want investigate, that is for sure. It puts up a red flag.

[Halladay]

It's safe to say that MLB won't be hunting this forum for future employees

Are you really gonna crush my dream of becoming a bat boy?

[Halladay]

You guys are all about percentages here. Are you seeing the difference here? 3.78 to 3.72 is nothing. What? So the use of percentages isn't favorable to your argument so it is not usable, but those other percentages are good enough to use to allow Greinke to win the CYA in the first place. Sorry, I don't buy that.

If Greinke was so great that year, he should have won more games. If Carlton can win 27 games with similar offensive support, Greinke should have won more than 16. No matter what his excuse is, lack of innings etc. He should have pitched his team to victory more times if he was truly the best in his league that year. If he didn't, then it is sad state of league that someone who is considered the best, and may as well have been that year, cannot do that.

In the case of Felix, I don't know enough about that season's other candidates to comment, but the extreme lack of wins makes me want investigate, that is for sure. It puts up a red flag.

The pitcher has no impact, in the AL, on offensive production. Offensive production=wins or losses. Year after year I saw Roy Halladay win 16 or 17 games when he could have easily won another 7 or 8 but year after year the offensive production was always horrible for him(nearly last every year for one specific pitcher IIRC). The whole argument that "if he was so good that year he should have won more games" isn't a valid one. Not only does a lack of offense play against the pitcher, his own team i.e the bullpen can blow wins for him too. There are way too many variables involved to take this stat seriously. Many of them not having anything to do with the actual performance of the individual.

[thefeckcampaign]

yup, exactly.

The catcher may call the pitches (and he doesn't with all pitchers, there are plenty of veteran pitchers that call their own games, Verlander for example), but he is simply doing the catching. He isn't the one actually throwing the pitches, and facing the hitter. He doesn't impact K's and BB's enough. We know this after 100+ years of data and the realization that catcher don't impact many things, like K/BB etc. They just don't. They are crazy important, moral leaders, and are crucial consistently in a number of situations (can I throw this breaking ball with confidence with two outs and a runner on third?). But in terms of the pitcher actually executing his pitches, no. That's up to the pitcher himself.

I'll take your word on the stats as I've done plenty of times before. Knowing that a catcher does have the roll in calling the game does make me question some things. We had a similar discussion prior when I spoke of Boone framing pitches as well. It is an interesting discussion never the less.

[thefeckcampaign]

The pitcher has no impact, in the AL, on offensive production. Offensive production=wins or losses. Year after year I saw Roy Halladay win 16 or 17 games when he could have easily won another 7 or 8 but year after year the offensive production was always horrible for him(nearly last every year for one specific pitcher IIRC). The whole argument that "if he was so good that year he should have won more games" isn't a valid one. Not only does a lack of offense play against the pitcher, his own team i.e the bullpen can blow wins for him too. There are way too many variables involved to take this stat seriously. Many of them not having anything to do with the actual performance of the individual.

There was no lack of offensive support, at least compared to Carlton on the '72 Phillies, one of their worse teams ever.

[Halladay]

There was no lack of offensive support, at least compared to Carlton on the '72 Phillies, one of their worse teams ever.

Again though, this is something that has absolutely nothing to do with how the pitcher performs.