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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    No, I am not.

    Stats are the result of all performance. Stats are a way to take all that great ability and performance that we all watch on Sundays and quantify it. Stats aren't the enemy, they are the friend. They give us all a simple way to separate the wheat from the chaff. They give us a way to separate the Peyton Mannings and the Tom Bradys of the world from the Mark Sanchez's and Jimmy Clausens of the world. Ignoring statistics when measuring a players ability leaves you uninformed and in the end has you basing your position on bias, limited information and nothing else.
    That's a nice mindset for baseball. But it doesn't work for football.

    Every single stat is a product of more than one player doing something? Passing yards? You have to have people to block for you, and receivers to catch it. Punting yards? You have to have an adequate long snapper to give you a good snap, and people to block for you so that you can punt it. No stat is a representation of an individual player's talent.

    You don't have ignore stats, but using them to determine absolutely the worth of a player is just ignorant. Sure, if you're basing your opinion of a player on what you see, there will be some bias. However, some bias in an observation is a hell of a lot better than using statistics to measure a player's worth that don't accurately measure their worth very well at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    How can you say they are equal talents? Results are the final arbiter. All the rest is bluster.
    By watching them.



    Regardless, this is a pointless argument. This argument is always a quagmire. You're not going to change your opinion, and I'm not going to change mine. Continue to blindly follow stats if you wish.





  2. #47
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    Elite can be a "group" of people, not just one person.

    elite[ ih-leet, ey-leet*] noun

    1.*the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

    2.*persons of the highest class:*Only the elite were there.

    3.*a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group:*the power elite of a major political party.

    http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=elite&o=0&l=dir
    Last edited by DESERTDWELLER; 11-16-2012 at 03:57 PM.

  3. #48
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    Subroc continues to show off his wide knowledge of the game.

    So, Subroc, the Patriots lead the NFL in rushing TDs with 14 right now. If, for example, the Patriots decided to change their offensive play calling style and they were passing more often (especially near the goal line and in the redzone) and because of this, those 14 rushing TDs were 4 rushing TDs/10 passing TDs instead (ala what they do in Green Bay with Aaron Rodgers and their running game)....that would make Tom Brady a better QB? A simple change in goaline/redzone playcalling would make Tom Brady a much better (28 TD/3 INT rather than 18 TD/3 INT) quarterback in your mind?
    Last edited by FortDetroit; 11-16-2012 at 04:01 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc
    How can you say they are equal talents?
    Quote Originally Posted by homestarunner93 View Post
    ...By watching them...
    And you believe you can determine the equal ability in 2 different players when one is very successful and another is failing miserably just by watching them?

    A bit of hubris on your part I expect.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  5. #50
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    when i first saw this thread i thought it was gonna claim eli was the only elite qb lol.

    in all seriousness though rodgers/brady/peyton/brees are all elite...

    Number 3 Is The Key!

  6. #51
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    Tom Brady has a message for the OP: http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...9105256-16.gif

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortDetroit View Post
    Subroc continues to show off his wide knowledge of the game.

    So, Subroc, the Patriots lead the NFL in rushing TDs with 14 right now. If, for example, the Patriots decided to change their offensive play calling style and they were passing more often (especially near the goal line and in the redzone) and because of this, those 14 rushing TDs were 4 rushing TDs/10 passing TDs instead (ala what they do in Green Bay with Aaron Rodgers and their running game)....that would make Tom Brady a better QB? A simple change in goaline/redzone playcalling would make Tom Brady a much better (28 TD/3 INT rather than 18 TD/3 INT) quarterback in your mind?
    I am very comfortable dealing with fact rather than supposition. Your if, and,buts are always amusing.

    Where both QBs fall is where they belong. And when the final story is told, the stats will tell it.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fla.SticKy View Post
    Call a doctor, you must have bumped your head! Brady is as ELITE as they come! Still dont know how you can make this this kind of statement, and NOT use stats either my friend!


    Its just the way I worded it. I should have made it clear that I wouldnt ONLY use stats because stats can sometimes be misleading. Its not just who ever passes for more yards or who has more TD passes is the better player with me. If that was the case why have debate? All anyone would have to do is look at the season ending stats to see who was better.

    Prime example of how stats are misleading......Last year Tony Romo had 31 TD passes to Eli's 29 so it's easy to say " Romo threw for more TD, he's better"

    But what those stats didnt show was the Giants rushed for 16 TDs compared to just 5 for Dallas( just an example not saying who is better) So Romo had a few 1,2,3 yard TD passes while the Giants decided to run for those same 1,2,3 yard TDs. Stats help but they are not the end all.

    I like Brady. Ive been a Michigan fan since 89 so naturally Im also a Brady fan but I just think that no other QB in the entire NFL can do what Peyton does. I think thats the one thing separates him from Brady. It seems like Brady does get a little help from his system where as Peyton is the system. For the record, I think Brady is better than Brees and Rodgers

    Mike Woodson NYK

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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by elledaddy View Post
    ...Prime example of how stats are misleading......Last year Tony Romo had 31 TD passes to Eli's 29 so it's easy to say " Romo threw for more TD, he's better"...
    Well, Romo is the better QB but not because of the TDs, it is his body of work.

    Code:
    <PRE>                                                                                                                    
                                             Game     Pass                                                              
    Rk        Player From   To Draft  Tm  Lg    G  GS  Cmp  Att  Cmp%   Yds  TD Int Rate  Sk  Y/A SkYds AY/A ANY/A   Y/G
    4    Eli Manning 2004 2012   1-1 NYG NFL  131 129 2514 4285 58.7% 30220 197 140 82.1 206 7.05  1455 6.50  5.88 230.7
    11     Tony Romo 2004 2012       DAL NFL  114  86 1902 2936 64.8% 23437 161  85 95.5 159 7.98   993 7.78  7.06 205.6
    </PRE>
    Last edited by subroc; 11-16-2012 at 04:49 PM.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  10. #55
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    His name is Aaron Rodgers.
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  11. #56
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    I do agree that Peyton Manning is the best because he's the only guy that calls his own plays.

    But I hate the word elite and any attempt to group players in that way

  12. #57
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    Huge Peyton fan, but Manning Rodgers Brees and Brady are all elite, Eli is close if not in that group.

    I hate when in order to compliment one player you have to put down others its completely unneccessary


    Jon Kitna is right up there as well


    “Just gobble, gobble, gobble, turkey from jive turkey gobblers”

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickshaw View Post
    Tom Brady has a message for the OP: http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...9105256-16.gif
    haha i cant make it out, but i like it


    “Just gobble, gobble, gobble, turkey from jive turkey gobblers”

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    I am very comfortable dealing with fact rather than supposition. Your if, and,buts are always amusing.

    Where both QBs fall is where they belong. And when the final story is told, the stats will tell it.
    there are no ifs, ands, or buts. just showing how playcalling can and does affect stats...and that effect has nothing to do with the quality of player that qb is or isnt. tom brady wouldnt be a better qb if his offensive coordinator decided to pass it more often near the goalline. he would be the exact same qb.

    in your stupid stat only world, matt ryan is a better QB than tom brady and drew brees, kevin kolb is better than eli manning, and blaine gabbert is basically the same quality qb as andrew luck.

    if you want to deal in "fact"...here's a great fact for you. not all yards and not all tds are created equal. a 40 yard screen pass to the RB isn't the same difficulty for the qb as a 40 yard pass downfield to a WR who is double covered....yet in your stupid "stat only" world, those things are counted exactly the same for the QB. stick that in your statistic pipe and smoke it.
    Last edited by FortDetroit; 11-16-2012 at 05:14 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortDetroit View Post
    there are no ifs, ands, or buts. just showing how playcalling can and does affect stats...and that effect has nothing to do with the quality of player that qb is or isnt. tom brady wouldnt be a better qb if his offensive coordinator decided to pass it more often near the goalline. he would be the exact same qb.

    if you want to deal in "fact"...here's a great fact for you. not all yards and not all tds are created equal. a 40 yard screen pass to the RB isn't the same difficulty for the qb as a 40 yard pass downfield to a WR who is double covered....yet in your stupid "stat only" world, those things are counted exactly the same for the QB. stick that in your statistic pipe and smoke it.
    I don't live in a stat only world.

    I just believe stats do a very good job of telling the story.
    stick that in your statistic pipe and smoke it.
    chuckling

    What are you 11

    Let me add, a small sample size may tell you nothing, something or everything. But a large sample size tells the story.

    Do you believe the current career stat line tells the story of who Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Peyton Mannining are as players or is there something missing, something the stats leave out?
    Last edited by subroc; 11-16-2012 at 05:24 PM.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

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