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  1. #91
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    double post. Delete please

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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    So wait there were no jews in Palestine before the 1940-50's

    There have been jews there just as long as there have been arabs there. I mean the two groups are like cousins and have been in the region for a long time. Drawing some lines in the sand is what started the conflicts. Well that and the fact the palestinians were thrown out of every other area they tried settling in by other arab groups.
    A mass migration of Jews to Palestine and the formation of an Israeli state started it. It wasn't a problem before then because the government wasn't trying to make a Jewish state for Jewish people. They coexisted because the Arabs living there were allowed to live in the homes that had been in their family for generations and they weren't Segregated to Gaza and the West Bank by the government. I didn't say that Jews shouldn't be living in the area, I said that Israel shouldn't be governing that area. And yes the area was predominantly Arab before the formation of the Israeli state.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johann View Post
    On mark twain's visit to Palestine in 1867.

    Not one person. I'm not saying nobody lived there, rather not many people did...
    So you think that one person's account of the land nearly 100 years before the conflict started is evidence that the land was uninhabited? I can go to parts of America that hardly have any people living there, I'm sure there's parts of every country in the world without a high population. One person's account almost a century before the conflict is hardly relevant to what we're talking about.
    Last edited by Trueblue2; 11-16-2012 at 07:06 AM.

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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueblue2 View Post
    A mass migration of Jews to Palestine and the formation of an Israeli state started it. It wasn't a problem before then because the government wasn't trying to make a Jewish state for Jewish people. They coexisted because the Arabs living there were allowed to live in the homes that had been in their family for generations and they weren't Segregated to Gaza and the West Bank by the government. I didn't say that Jews shouldn't be living in the area, I said that Israel shouldn't be governing that area.
    So jews shouldn't govern themselves??

    do you have any idea what a Canaanite is??
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    So jews shouldn't govern themselves??

    do you have any idea what a Canaanite is??
    I didn't say that, I said that ISRAEL shouldn't have the right to govern that land. I have no problem with Jews, it's Zionists who are the war criminals I have a problem with. Jewish people governing themselves and Zionists taking an Arab nation by force are two very different things. And yes, I know who the Canaanites were, and who lived there thousands of years ago during biblical times isn't relevant to what's going on now.

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  5. #95
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    So Israel shouldn't have the right to govern land....in Israel?? I mean I don't get it??

    Which war criminals are we speaking of?? The ones that tried killing the jews in the 1967 war or what?

    Maybe you meant the ones from the Arab uprising in 1948 or??

    Which Arab nation are they taking by force??
    Last edited by Randy West; 11-16-2012 at 07:24 AM.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Why the U.S government still backs Israel is crazy to me.
    They stopped doing that about 5 years ago.

    On a weekly basis they bomb Palestine.
    Actually, they bomb Hamas targets, because Hamas has been shooting hundreds of rockets into Israel. But Hamas hide among the civillian population, which makes it very hard to target them because when you do hit them, there is likely to be civillian casualties.

    But they do that purposely, so that when they get attacked they can go "Look, Israel attacked civillians"....despite the fact that Hamas is specifically targeting Israeli citizens, which nobody seems to acknowledge. Your post was a good example of what I'm talking about.

    I'm by no means a Palestinian sympathizer as both parties throw stones but you can't honestly side with one or the other when it's always a classic case of who threw the first punch(which has been going on for countless years).
    The first punch was thrown by the surrounding Arab nations in the 48 war, the 67 war, and recently with the increased rockets into Israel.

    You can't honestly believe that nonsense, especially when Hamas, Hezzbollah and several other groups stated goals are to wipe Israel off the map and to kill all the Israelis.

    America really needs to back out of supporting Israel, they're just as nuts as the so called "terrorists" except they're white.
    I'm really disappointed you think that, and I have to say I lost a bit of respect for you for even suggesting that. That's such nonsense. Israel is defending its right to exist from several terrorist groups whose goals are to kill the Israelis.


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  7. #97
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    What don't you get? I'm saying Israel didn't have the right to claim that land as their own in the first place, therefore shouldn't exist. Israel was formed and they started enacting policies to take land away from the Arabs that had been living there for generations and they have steadily been taking more and more land. Their goal is and has always been to form a purely Jewish state, and they are doing this by enforcing trade embargo's on Arab communities keeping their people from basic goods necessary for survival, segregating the Arab's into ever shrinking territories, and when that doesn't work killing them. I'm not saying that Jews in that area shouldn't have the right to hold government office and don't have the right to live there, I'm saying that ISRAEL has no right to try to form a purely Jewish state and to kick the Arabs living there out of their homes. I don't have a problem with Jews living there, I have a problem with what the Israeli government is doing to the Arab's that have just as much of a right to the land as they do, and I have a problem with the average Israeli citizens unwavering support of this.

    The war Criminals I'm talking about are the ones that sunk the USS liberty, the ones that put the Arabs in Palestine into ghettos and cut them off from basic goods and services, the ones that demolish Palestinian homes, the ones that to this day are moving further and further into Palestinian territories and forcing more Arabs living there to leave their homes (illegally and against UN mandates I might add), the ones that advance onto Palestinian land with tanks and assault rifles and open fire because somebody threw a stone. And they're pretty clearly pushing the Palestinians off of their home land by force.

    And I know that organizations like Hamas do their fair share of attacks, but what do you expect them to do? just leave their homes because they belong to Israel now? Palestine doesn't have a military and they're going up against a very large and very well equipped military so they're forced to use guerrilla tactics that people label as terrorism because that's their last best hope in defending the lives and homes of their people.
    Last edited by Trueblue2; 11-16-2012 at 07:38 AM.

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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueblue2 View Post
    What don't you get? I'm saying Israel didn't have the right to claim that land as their own in the first place, therefore shouldn't exist. Israel was formed and they started enacting policies to take land away from the Arabs that had been living there for generations and they have steadily been taking more and more land. Their goal is and has always been to form a purely Jewish state, and they are doing this by enforcing trade embargo's on Arab communities keeping their people from basic goods necessary for survival, segregating the Arab's into ever shrinking territories, and when that doesn't work killing them. I'm not saying that Jews in that area shouldn't have the right to hold government office and don't have the right to live there, I'm saying that ISRAEL has no right to try to form a purely Jewish state and to kick the Arabs living there out of their homes. I don't have a problem with Jews living there, I have a problem with what the Israeli government is doing to the Arab's that have just as much of a right to the land as they do, and I have a problem with the average Israeli citizens unwavering support of this.

    The war Criminals I'm talking about are the ones that sunk the USS liberty, the ones that put the Arabs in Palestine into ghettos and cut them off from basic goods and services, the ones that demolish Palestinian homes, the ones that to this day are moving further and further into Palestinian territories and forcing more Arabs living there to leave their homes (illegally and against UN mandates I might add), the ones that advance onto Palestinian land with tanks and assault rifles and open fire because somebody threw a stone.
    So you don't know what a Canaanite is I guess.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

    Jews or Canaanites or Israeli's as they are now referenced have been in that area just as long as Arabs have and some accounts have them placed there before the Arabs of the region.

    So why do you and others consider this Arab land or Arab territory when history shows these other folks were there as well and could have actually even been there before Arabs?
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  9. #99
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    You're clearly missing my point. I don't have a problem with Jews living there, I don't have a problem with Jews holding spots in the government, I don't think Arab's hold the exclusive right to the land. I do have a problem with the Israeli government segregating the country and forcing Arabs to either Gaza or the West bank. I do have a problem with the Embargo's and Sanctions that Israel is enacting on Palestinian territory. And I do have a problem with Israel trying to form an exclusively Jewish state in an area that was predominantly Arab at the time. That's as clear as I can make it, but I'm sure you're gonna find a way to twist that too.


    And who lived there thousands of years ago is about as relevant as who lived in America thousands of years ago. You're bringing up people that lived there in the times of the Romans as if it has any bearing on who has the right to govern the land today.

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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueblue2 View Post
    So you think that one person's account of the land nearly 100 years before the conflict started is evidence that the land was uninhabited? I can go to parts of America that hardly have any people living there, I'm sure there's parts of every country in the world without a high population. One person's account almost a century before the conflict is hardly relevant to what we're talking about.
    One thing, I doubt Twain went alone.

    Second of all, do you know how small Israel is. It's about the same size as New ****ing Jersey. It doesn't take years to travel...

    The land was inhabitable, and it was probable that many Arabs lived in Egypt, rather than in Palestine

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    So you don't know what a Canaanite is I guess.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

    Jews or Canaanites or Israeli's as they are now referenced have been in that area just as long as Arabs have and some accounts have them placed there before the Arabs of the region.

    So why do you and others consider this Arab land or Arab territory when history shows these other folks were there as well and could have actually even been there before Arabs?
    Jews weren't Canaanites. Canaan is a country. Canaanites are citizens of the country.

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
    they're Lederhosen



  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johann View Post
    One thing, I doubt Twain went alone.

    Second of all, do you know how small Israel is. It's about the same size as New ****ing Jersey. It doesn't take years to travel...

    The land was inhabitable, and it was probable that many Arabs lived in Egypt, rather than in Palestine
    You're still taking the words of one man who went there in a time period that was almost a century before the time period we're talking about. You're taking an allegorical statement out of it's original context and treating it as if it were a census of the land. Where in Palestine did Twain travel? How long was he there? Did he visit any cities? Was he writing about Palestine as a whole or one specific region? If you can't easily answer these questions then why are you using this quote to support your argument as if you understand it's context?

    There's statistics that are readily available that show the population of that land, if you want to make an argument you should use that to support it.

    Dodgers, Lakers, Raiders.
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  13. #103
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    There are truly murderous and criminal acts being undertaken by both sides here. If we weren't the primary supplier of weapons to one of them, I'd feel a lot more neutral about the situation. As it is, there is blood on our hands again.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueblue2 View Post
    You're clearly missing my point. I don't have a problem with Jews living there, I don't have a problem with Jews holding spots in the government, I don't think Arab's hold the exclusive right to the land. I do have a problem with the Israeli government segregating the country and forcing Arabs to either Gaza or the West bank. I do have a problem with the Embargo's and Sanctions that Israel is enacting on Palestinian territory. And I do have a problem with Israel trying to form an exclusively Jewish state in an area that was predominantly Arab at the time. That's as clear as I can make it, but I'm sure you're gonna find a way to twist that too.


    And who lived there thousands of years ago is about as relevant as who lived in America thousands of years ago. You're bringing up people that lived there in the times of the Romans as if it has any bearing on who has the right to govern the land today.
    And once again you for some reason don't think Israeli's should be there or be allowed to govern their land. Who should have the right to govern Israel then in your opinion if not the Israeli's themselves. Maybe you would like the Palestinians to govern them? I mean they can't even form a state when given multiple opportunities to do so.

    I am bringing it up because it does have bearing. The people were there, you can't just look at the last hundred years and say well it was mostly arabs so only they have a right to anything.

    Israel didn't divide the land the mandate divided the land. Yes the Israelis took more land after failed attempts from neighboring Arabs to push them off of theirs. Which according to rules of war at the time was acceptable.


    Below was wiki


    In the course of the Six Day War in June 1967, Israel captured the rest of Mandate Palestine, taking West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan and the Gaza Strip from Egypt. Following military threats by Egypt and Syria, including Egyptian president Nasser's demand of the UN to remove its peace-keeping troops from the Egyptian-Israeli border, in June 1967 Israeli forces went to action against Egypt, Syria and Jordan. As a result of that war, the Israel Defense Forces conquered the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula bringing them under military rule. Israel also pushed Arab forces back from East Jerusalem, which Jews had not been permitted to visit during the prior Jordanian rule. East Jerusalem was allegedly[218] annexed by Israel as part of its capital, though this action has not been recognized internationally.[citation needed] Israel also started building settlements on the occupied land.[219]

    The United Nation's Security Council passed Resolution 242, promoting the "land for peace" formula, which called for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967, in return for the end of all states of belligerency by the aforementioned Arab League nations. Palestinians continued longstanding demands for the destruction of Israel or made a new demand for self-determination in a separate independent Arab state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip similar to but smaller than the original Partition area that Palestinians and the Arab League had rejected for statehood in 1947.

    In the course of 1973 Yom Kippur War, military forces of Egypt crossed the Suez canal and Syria to regain the Golan heights. The attacking military forces of Syria were pushed back. After a cease fire, Egyptian President Sadat Anwar Sadat started peace talks with the U.S. and Israel. Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt as part of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accords between Egypt and Israel in hopes of establishing a genuine peace.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  15. #105
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    As usual, poor Israel is terrified of Hamas's wittle rockets so they have to wipe out the entire map.

    Sorry I forget they never target civilians. Guess some Hamas operative was hiding in that baby's crib.

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