Could a "Ground War" be coming on the Gaza Border?

[BroadwayJoe]

that's the thing...they don't view themselves as terrorists.

i'm not going to get into a philosophical discussion regarding how what one person perceives as one thing, another perceives entirely different. suffice it to say that in the civilized world, the VAST majority of people define what hamas, hezbollah, et-al. do as "terrorism."

they do not attack the people who are directly "oppressing" them, but rather innocent civilians. then they hide behind their youngest and weakest civilians when israel retaliates. if they were truly freedom fighters, they'd be fighting the people who are actually keeping them from "their" land... not innocent civilians. that's textbook terrorism.

[BroadwayJoe]

The pictures running around are so sad

depends which ones... hamas was recently exposed using a propoganda pic of a father holding his dead son, claiming it was a result of this week's crossfire. it turns out, that pic was from several months ago, and was being used by hamas' excellent PR movement to perpetuate the theory that israel will just destroy anything in her way to achieve her goals.

but needless to say, the death of any innocent civilian - let alone a child - is always incredibly heartbreaking and unnecessary.

[nastynice]

i think there is a staunch disparity between the palestinian people and the palestinian terrorist groups that perpetuate much of the animosity and violence that pervades the region. the palestinian people (civilians) get the shaft because of the actions of these groups who claim to represent their best interests. i genuinely feel for the plight of the palestinian civilian and hope for a day when the two sides can live together in some form of peace. the other faction - the palestinian terrorist groups - well, they can go **** themselves.

Well, I believe Hamas was the party elected by the Palestinians people when they had elections. The thing is, although Hamas may not be making the smartest moves, they are the only ones who are willing to make moves for the Palestinians. Who else is standing up for their right? Maybe Islamic Jihad. I don't know they're politics too well, but there are just a few groups willing to stand up for their rights.

[Havoc Wreaker]

depends which ones... hamas was recently exposed using a propoganda pic of a father holding his dead son, claiming it was a result of this week's crossfire. it turns out, that pic was from several months ago, and was being used by hamas' excellent PR movement to perpetuate the theory that israel will just destroy anything in her way to achieve her goals.

but needless to say, the death of any innocent civilian - let alone a child - is always incredibly heartbreaking and unnecessary.

I just saw that one I think, but earlier today I saw another of a man holding another man or kid with one leg blown up.

[nastynice]

i'm not going to get into a philosophical discussion regarding how what one person perceives as one thing, another perceives entirely different. suffice it to say that in the civilized world, the VAST majority of people define what hamas, hezbollah, et-al. do as "terrorism."

they do not attack the people who are directly "oppressing" them, but rather innocent civilians. then they hide behind their youngest and weakest civilians when israel retaliates. if they were truly freedom fighters, they'd be fighting the people who are actually keeping them from "their" land... not innocent civilians. that's textbook terrorism.

Actually, to my understanding, EVERY citizen in Israel is REQUIRED to take part in the IDF in one form or another. Meaning every citizen takes part in this aggressive act against the Palestinian people. If every palestinian was required to serve Hamas for a few years, would you view them as innocent? I'm not saying one way or the other, but its a bit more complicated than what ur making it out to be

Also, what are the Hamas soldiers to do? Stand out in the middle of an open field and shoot pistols at tanks and apaches? Of course guerilla warfare is their only chance, what else can they possibly do?

[nastynice]

I just saw that one I think, but earlier today I saw another of a man holding another man or kid with one leg blown up.

This has been going on for quite a while. There are plenty of documentaries showing first hand the effects of IDF forces, VERY VERY graphic. Very sad indeed. Even al jazeera had taken some heat in the past, as they used to show a lot of uncut footage. They have toned it down now

[BroadwayJoe]

Actually, to my understanding, EVERY citizen in Israel is REQUIRED to take part in the IDF in one form or another. Meaning every citizen takes part in this aggressive act against the Palestinian people. If every palestinian was required to serve Hamas for a few years, would you view them as innocent? I'm not saying one way or the other, but its a bit more complicated than what ur making it out to be

Also, what are the Hamas soldiers to do? Stand out in the middle of an open field and shoot pistols at tanks and apaches? Of course guerilla warfare is their only chance, what else can they possibly do?

not true... there are several ways out of duty, specifically (and unfairly, if you ask me) for the ultra-religious sect living there.

and your assertion that "every civilian takes part in this aggressive act against the palestinian people" is so off base, it's startling. first, not every israeli participates in the IDF. second, not every drafted israeli participates in actual combat, strategy or intel ops relating to palestinian conflicts. third, your post implies that by being in the IDF, one is inherently acting as an aggressor against palestine. i'm sure the people who have had to stand guard at the border as people shot at them with guns and scud missiles would disagree with your assessment.

[BroadwayJoe]

I just saw that one I think, but earlier today I saw another of a man holding another man or kid with one leg blown up.

there are literally countless examples of them doing that, which is why me and randy make such an effort to highlight that in these types of discussions. basically, groups like hamas are trying to have their cake and eat it too. they are initiating strikes on israel, then hiding behind their weakest civilians when israel responds, then using visual imagery of the aftermath to get the world behind their cause.

that's why i say hamas has one of the best PR machines in the world. it's truly amazing considering their resources (that's not being facetious... i'm serial).

[nastynice]

not true... there are several ways out of duty, specifically (and unfairly, if you ask me) for the ultra-religious sect living there.

and your assertion that "every civilian takes part in this aggressive act against the palestinian people" is so off base, it's startling. first, not every israeli participates in the IDF. second, not every drafted israeli participates in actual combat, strategy or intel ops relating to palestinian conflicts. third, your post implies that by being in the IDF, one is inherently acting as an aggressor against palestine. i'm sure the people who have had to stand guard at the border as people shot at them with guns and scud missiles would disagree with your assessment.

Ok, well at least the norm is for one to be required to join IDF. Of course they are not all combat ground troops, but like I said, they support these aggressive acts in one way or another. Be it working on the technology of weapons, helping maintain the facilities for the soldiers, etc. If you are a part of IDF, you are either directly or indirectly a part of these aggressive acts.

I know there are two sides to the story, and IDF not only attacks but also defends itself. But at the end of the day, one side is an oppressor and one side is being oppressed.

[nastynice]

there are literally countless examples of them doing that, which is why me and randy make such an effort to highlight that in these types of discussions. basically, groups like hamas are trying to have their cake and eat it too. they are initiating strikes on israel, then hiding behind their weakest civilians when israel responds, then using visual imagery of the aftermath to get the world behind their cause.

that's why i say hamas has one of the best PR machines in the world. it's truly amazing considering their resources (that's not being facetious... i'm serial).

I hope you are not suggesting that out of the two, Hamas is the one with the larger propaganda machine.

[BroadwayJoe]

I hope you are not suggesting that out of the two, Hamas is the one with the larger propaganda machine.

i am saying they have the more effective one

which is 100000000000000% true

EDIT: i wish israel had half as good spin as hamas

[BroadwayJoe]

Ok, well at least the norm is for one to be required to join IDF. Of course they are not all combat ground troops, but like I said, they support these aggressive acts in one way or another. Be it working on the technology of weapons, helping maintain the facilities for the soldiers, etc. If you are a part of IDF, you are either directly or indirectly a part of these aggressive acts.

I know there are two sides to the story, and IDF not only attacks but also defends itself. But at the end of the day, one side is an oppressor and one side is being oppressed.

again, this is more unsubstantiated BS. there is more to the IDF than simply conflicts with the muslim world. a lot more.

EDIT: you come across like a mini d-rose... a lot of unsubstantiated conjecture and assumptions that you pass off as either fact or "hey, i'm just asking questions, man!"

[nastynice]

i am saying they have the more effective one

which is 100000000000000% true

Its very hard to take anything you say seriously when you make statements like these.

I will tell you Israel has 10x the spin as Hamas, and you are proof of that

[nastynice]

again, this is more unsubstantiated BS. there is more to the IDF than simply conflicts with the muslim world. a lot more.

EDIT: you come across like a mini d-rose... a lot of unsubstantiated conjecture and assumptions that you pass off as either fact or "hey, i'm just asking questions, man!"

My friend, Hamas has plenty of non military services they provide too, however you are either helping push a particular party's objectives, or you aren't

[BroadwayJoe]

Its very hard to take anything you say seriously when you make statements like these.

well, i guess you know how most of the PSD community feels about all of your posts, especially all your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

being told this by you is more an affirmation of my intelligence than a slight to it.