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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Who is saying the arabs of the region have no claim to land in Palestine? Problem is THEY can't live side by side with the Jews and haven't been able to since the start of recorded history.

    Palestine is a large place and I don't fault the Arab's that call themselves Palestinian for not having a home or state. I blame their leadership for being kicked around the region.

    They belong there just as the Jews do, as both groups have been for thousands of years prior to lines in the sand and the arabs being kicked out of basically everyplace else they have tried settling in.
    If they have claims to the land, why should they be expected to go live in other countries? The argument that they should has been thrown around numerous times.
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  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    for the purpose of full disclosure: i am an israeli-american who DOES believe arabs have a right to some of the land in israel and that the settlement issues are a stain on israel's leadership. i believe the two can live together, but it takes two to tango. history indicates that israel would be monumentally naive to just give and give and give, and think everything will be ok. they've done that in the past (ceding land to palestinians) and it's always resulted in recurring turmoil.

    i do not think israel has sole rights to israel. but i don't blame israel for taking extreme measures to protect itself in a region surrounded by people who have gone out of their way to destroy her and her people. i also don't think it's imprudent to be highly dubious of the intentions of people you've dealt with for generations and know to be half-hearted in their attempts for "peace."
    exactly. Israel is FINE with giving up land. But guess what Hamas/Iran/Hesbola want... THEY want 100% of the land. So there is really no point in negotiating with them when its "WE WANT IT ALL or we will fight you for it"

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    for the purpose of full disclosure: i am an israeli-american who DOES believe arabs have a right to some of the land in israel and that the settlement issues are a stain on israel's leadership. i believe the two can live together, but it takes two to tango. history indicates that israel would be monumentally naive to just give and give and give, and think everything will be ok. they've done that in the past (ceding land to palestinians) and it's always resulted in recurring turmoil.

    i do not think israel has sole rights to israel. but i don't blame israel for taking extreme measures to protect itself in a region surrounded by people who have gone out of their way to destroy her and her people. i also don't think it's imprudent to be highly dubious of the intentions of people you've dealt with for generations and know to be half-hearted in their attempts for "peace."
    I agree 100%. I'm not trying to argue that finding a share-the-land compromise is possible at this point. There is far too much bad blood, and it would undoubtedly be reckless on the part of Israel. I just think that, eventually, it is the only peaceable solution.
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  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLynn943 View Post
    If they have claims to the land, why should they be expected to go live in other countries? The argument that they should has been thrown around numerous times.
    Those other countries were once all considered Palestine as well. You have a segment that wants all of Palestine back. You have a segment that wants all Jews out of Palestine. You have a segment that won't settle the land issue one bit.

    Palestine in the historical context was a huge place. It is now parts of other countries. Now why on earth do we have to have two sides so opposed to one another settled right on top of one another when there is so much land to go around that was once Palestine. Why will Palestinian leadership not settle for anything less than where the jews are already settled and have built huge cities and establishments and have had them there for centuries?

    The only time some of that land was Arab was when Jews were driven from it. Do you really think Jerusalem has some significant importance to the arabs? The only time it did is when Hebrews were run out and their temples demolished to build Mosques and the like.

    Jerusalem is sacred to the jewish people, the Arabs use it as a dumping ground when they controlled the region.
    Last edited by Randy West; 11-16-2012 at 02:02 PM.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


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  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Those other countries were once all considered Palestine as well. You have a segment that wants all of Palestine back. You have a segment that wants all Jews out of Palestine. You have a segment that won't settle the land issue one bit.

    Palestine in the historical context was a huge place. It is now parts of other countries. Now why on earth do we have to have two sides so opposed to one another settled right on top of one another when there is so much land to go around that was once Palestine. Why will Palestinian leadership not settle for anything less than where the jews are already settled and have built huge cities and establishments.
    Gee, I wonder why?

    Its not like Israel is sitting on top of all the main historical sites in Palestine and especially Jerusalem which is a sacred Muslim spot. No way, that couldn't be the reason.

    I love how people will admit that Israel doesn't have a claim to all the land, in the purpose of being fair. That doesn't make you "fair", that just furthers the notion of having robbed a people of their land.

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  6. #201
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    If something is yours, you shouldn't have to settle for half of it or 75% of it. I might as well just take over your house then give you back the living room. After all, that way we can all live side by side and its a fair solution.

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  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by {Ron!n} View Post
    Gee, I wonder why?

    Its not like Israel is sitting on top of all the main historical sites in Palestine and especially Jerusalem which is a sacred Muslim spot. No way, that couldn't be the reason.

    I love how people will admit that Israel doesn't have a claim to all the land, in the purpose of being fair. That doesn't make you "fair", that just furthers the notion of having robbed a people of their land.
    Gaza has shot missiles just outside Jerusalem to... conserve it's sanctity?
    Palestinians can go to all the holy sites in Jerusalem...

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
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  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    The only time some of that land was Arab was when Jews were driven from it. Do you really think Jerusalem has some significant importance to the arabs? The only time it did is when Hebrews were run out and their temples demolished to build Mosques and the like.

    Jerusalem is sacred to the jewish people, the Arabs use it as a dumping ground when they controlled the region.


    Right. Jews are the only religion that holds Jerusalem in significance. Its not like its mentioned in the Quran or anything.

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  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Those other countries were once all considered Palestine as well. You have a segment that wants all of Palestine back. You have a segment that wants all Jews out of Palestine. You have a segment that won't settle the land issue one bit.

    Palestine in the historical context was a huge place. It is now parts of other countries. Now why on earth do we have to have two sides so opposed to one another settled right on top of one another when there is so much land to go around that was once Palestine. Why will Palestinian leadership not settle for anything less than where the jews are already settled and have built huge cities and establishments and have had them there for centuries?

    The only time some of that land was Arab was when Jews were driven from it. Do you really think Jerusalem has some significant importance to the arabs? The only time it did is when Hebrews were run out and their temples demolished to build Mosques and the like.

    Jerusalem is sacred to the jewish people, the Arabs use it as a dumping ground when they controlled the region.
    Nice edit, lol.

    I'm far from an expert on either religion, but from what I understand, Jerusalem is important to both regardless. I was under the impression that it's more than just Jerusalem in Israel that is important to Palestinians though?
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  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johann View Post
    Gaza has shot missiles just outside Jerusalem to... conserve it's sanctity?
    Palestinians can go to all the holy sites in Jerusalem...
    Thats a lie. I lived in Palestine and that is 100% false.

    Greater than 50% of the population aren't allowed to go to Jerusalem or Hebron. And the other percentage that do, need a document allowing them to cross over.

    At any given day, Israel will close the checkpoints and not let anyone through. Other days they'll only let people over 50 in. And thats not even getting over how ridiculous the checkpoints are.

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  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLynn943 View Post
    Nice edit, lol.

    I'm far from an expert on either religion, but from what I understand, Jerusalem is important to both regardless. I was under the impression that it's more than just Jerusalem in Israel that is important to Palestinians though?
    There's Jerusalem, theres Hebron, theres Bethlehem and multiple other sites across Palestine. And these sites hold the same sanctity to Christians, who surprisingly also find Israel in the wrong.

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  12. #207
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    To me the most obvious solution is the two-state solution. Palestine wants it, 130 countries want it...yet Israel and the United States do not want it.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by {Ron!n} View Post
    Thats a lie. I lived in Palestine and that is 100% false.

    Greater than 50% of the population aren't allowed to go to Jerusalem or Hebron. And the other percentage that do, need a document allowing them to cross over.

    At any given day, Israel will close the checkpoints and not let anyone through. Other days they'll only let people over 50 in. And thats not even getting over how ridiculous the checkpoints are.
    They also don't let Jews enter those sites... Weird.

    But answer my first point? Why is Gaza aiming for Jerusalem ?

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
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  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by {Ron!n} View Post
    Gee, I wonder why?

    Its not like Israel is sitting on top of all the main historical sites in Palestine and especially Jerusalem which is a sacred Muslim spot. No way, that couldn't be the reason.

    I love how people will admit that Israel doesn't have a claim to all the land, in the purpose of being fair. That doesn't make you "fair", that just furthers the notion of having robbed a people of their land.
    Jerusalem was a sacred Hebrew spot before they were driven from it and monuments destroyed and mosques were built.

    You realize that Jews were driven from the west bank and gaza I am sure.

    Study the history
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by {Ron!n} View Post


    Right. Jews are the only religion that holds Jerusalem in significance. Its not like its mentioned in the Quran or anything.
    How many times you think?

    You really want to go down the road of who holds it in higher regard?

    Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Jewish tradition since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son, King Solomon, commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.[10] In Christian tradition, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified there, possibly in c. 33 CE,[11][12][13] and 300 years later Saint Helena identified the pilgrimage sites of Jesus' life. In Sunni Islam, Jerusalem is the third-holiest city.[14][15] In Islamic tradition in 610 CE it became the first Qibla, the focal point for Muslim prayer (Salah),[16] and Muhammad made his Night Journey there ten years later, according to the Quran.[17][18] As a result, despite having an area of only 0.9 square kilometres (0.35 sq mi),[19] the Old City is home to many sites of tremendous religious importance, among them the Temple Mount and its the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

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