Are the Wilpons Getting A Pass In This Whole Bad Ownership Debate?

[Daaaarryyl]

I have legitimate concerns they will never be able to pay for larger market FAs again under this ownership.

Still not a reason for Selig to step in. Had he stepped in when teams didn't go after larger market free agents there would be a lot fewer ballclubs in the game

Maybe they quell our concerns going forward in regards to payroll but that's going to take financial commitment. Something the Wilpons have had a hard doing the last 2 offseasons and this offseason.

The concern I want quelled is whether they have a plan, or better yet if they know what the hell they're doing. Giving Hamilton and Greinke 150 million dollars will not quell my fears but inhance them

Payroll that was already there in regards to Bay, Santana, Ollie, Castillo, etc etc is there regardless of whether they spend money. They haven't shown a commitment to do that.

For the time being I'm OK with them not adding payroll. They're just not good enough to think signing free agents is going to make them into a legit contender anyway

I know this team is in a transitional period and going through an organizational shift in how to build a sustaining successful ballclub (although that is arguable) but i hope when the time comes to spend money again they can do it.

^^ Now right there is something I am worried about. When the time does come will they put up the necesary money to build a winner. Not too confident on that I'll give you.

With close to 60 million dollars coming off the books going into the 2014 season, i want to believe the Wilpons will start spending money but who knows to be honest.


Hate to be the bearer of bad news but there isn't a Pedro, Beltran, Wagner and Delgado to target when that money comes off the books.

[metswon69]

It is very different than the Dodger and Marlin situations. There are plenty of owners with less liquid cash than the Wilpons so there is nothing that can be done.

Frank McCourt blatantly used Dodgers cash for his personal fortune. Loria blatantly fooled an entire city into funding a stadium and buying Marlins gear just to capitalize and fund his personal fortune for a year. Those are gross misrepresentations, not what the Wilpons are doing.

I never claimed they weren't completely different situations, in fact i addressed that in my OP.

My problem is more the fact that the Wilpons don't look like big market owners at this point. Maybe that has to do with Alderson's differing philosophy on how a team is supposed to be run or maybe that has to do with the fact that Bud Selig is too friendly with Fred Wilpon to acknowledge what is really going on.

Even the teams Sandy was the GM for in late 80s and 90s had larger market payrolls and spent money to sustain their successful run (something towards the end of his tenure there he didn't have).

The Mets only have a middle of the road payroll due to prior contract obligations. This is not a middle of the road market like a Detroit or a Milwaukee. This is a NY franchise that should have the capability to operate as such.

It doesn't look like that currently and if the reports are correct about the Wilpons & the Mets financial debt they might never be under this ownership again.

[metswon69]

Still not a reason for Selig to step in. Had he stepped in when teams didn't go after larger market free agents there would be a lot fewer ballclubs in the game

The concern I want quelled is whether they have a plan, or better yet if they know what the hell they're doing. Giving Hamilton and Greinke 150 million dollars will not quell my fears but inhance them

For the time being I'm OK with them not adding payroll. They're just not good enough to think signing free agents is going to make them into a legit contender anyway

^^ Now right there is something I am worried about. When the time does come will they put up the necesary money to build a winner. Not too confident on that I'll give you.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but there isn't a Pedro, Beltran, Wagner and Delgado to target when that money comes off the books.

I don't want to just throw money willy nilly around and hope it sticks but i want to know the Mets can be in the market for a Corey Hart, a Carlos Gomez, an Aaron Hill, or a Michael Morse if that can improve the team.

The truth is there are not of elite FA out there on the open market for 2014 (at least positionally) but i want to see them be able to make a run at some of those guys (for example) if they are in position to compete again after next year.

Even making smaller moves have seem to become difficult. Adding a Cody Ross or making a push for a Josh Willingham last offseason wasn't even batted around.

I know a Josh Hamilton or a BJ Upton is not the answer to our problems this year but with Harvey and Wheeler coming, a solid SP staff, and a good INF, if they can tweak around the bullpen and find a couple of OF maybe they can compete again in 2014.

The way they are throwing around numbers like a 1yr deal for Cody Ross (which won't get him) or hoping they catch lightning in a bottle with Melky Cabrera for one year signifies we might be in deep ****.

This team is going to need to be pieced together as there are certainly no Carlos Beltrans or Carlos Delgados on the horizon but i am seriously not sure the Wilpons can even afford those smaller pieces to build a team who can compete.

We are up ****'s creek without a paddle, our farm system is weak positionally so there is little help coming there, and they can't seem to add even halfway significant payroll through trade.

How do we win under those circumstances?

[Daaaarryyl]

Metswon69, you make some good points. Yes, they should be active even if (and especially if) they cannot target free agents. But that's also on Sandy Alderson.

(We can discuss that on the Mets board so as not to bore non-Met fans with this)

Point was mainly that Selig shouldn't step in (yet) just because the Mets owners are incompetent.

[Coupon]

It is very different than the Dodger and Marlin situations. There are plenty of owners with less liquid cash than the Wilpons so there is nothing that can be done.

Frank McCourt blatantly used Dodgers cash for his personal fortune. Loria blatantly fooled an entire city into funding a stadium and buying Marlins gear just to capitalize and fund his personal fortune for a year. Those are gross misrepresentations, not what the Wilpons are doing.

Metswon69, you make some good points. Yes, they should be active even if (and especially if) they cannot target free agents. But that's also on Sandy Alderson.

(We can discuss that on the Mets board so as not to bore non-Met fans with this)

Point was mainly that Selig shouldn't step in (yet) just because the Mets owners are incompetent.

Fred got a virtually free stadium (paid for by the naming rights deal and PILOT program), is getting a $500m piece of land across the street from the stadium for free. A ton of free public money is flowing so Fred can build a $3 billion neighborhood across the street on that land...

He got off scot free after being near the top of the pyramid of his second Ponzi scheme and walked away $300 million ahead...

He owns a regional sports network in the biggest market in the world. He's also drawing 2.2 million fans paying NYC prices to watch a small market team...

And he claims he's losing money anyway and using this as an excuse to stick a ton of SNY money in his pocket while gutting the team.

He's doing exactly what Loria is doing only on a much bigger scale.

[metswon69]

Metswon69, you make some good points. Yes, they should be active even if (and especially if) they cannot target free agents. But that's also on Sandy Alderson.

(We can discuss that on the Mets board so as not to bore non-Met fans with this)

Point was mainly that Selig shouldn't step in (yet) just because the Mets owners are incompetent.

Fair enough, was just looking for some outsider's perspectives.

I disagree about Bud not stepping in but much like the Dodger's situation all i can say is this sucks.

As for Sandy Alderson (although having made some bad moves on his own) he is certainly inhibited greatly by the lack of financial flexibility this team has.

Having an owner who is financially incapable of owning a big market franchise and is continually allowed to own said team just puzzles me greatly.

[Daaaarryyl]

LOL Coupon!! Love reading your stuff on the Mets board. You're one of the very few people in this world that actually hates the Wilpons more than I do.

But I'm not gonna go into all that stuff you've mentioned here and on the Mets board about the Ponzi scheme simply because I do not know anything about what actually happened with all that. Can't agree or disagree because I just don't know.


I'll tell you this much, and I've said it for years, I'm planning a big celebration on Roosevelt Ave in front of CitiField under the 7 train the day the Wilpons are run out. Hoping to meet all of you Mets fans there (soon), I'll supply the champagne, gladly!!

[Pinstripe pride]

wilpons suck big time

[GasMan]

No but they should have the capabilities to do so.

I am not advocating writing blank checks, but when you have an ownership incapable of carrying an upper echelon payroll in a time in baseball where other markets keep growing, it's a problem.

The Mets are not a mid market team playing in Seattle or Minnesota, they play in New York, that should afford them to be in the market for more expensive FAs.

The way they are going that won't happen for several years.

This may be true but I don't see how Mets' ownership can be held to a different standard than a Pitt or SD ownership. Should the Mets have better revenues that would afford a higher payroll? Yes but if they don't then the Mets are just a small market team in NYC until the Wilpons can or will spend more.

[gaughan333]

If they had no intentions of re-signing him, yeah they should have dealt Reyes.

Preferably i wanted to see him back, but i certainly didn't want just compensation picks in return for a player of his caliber.

Under ownership who had proper resources, Reyes would have been re-signed and there certainly wouldn't have been the dragging of their feet to re-sign a Cy Young winner and the face of your franchise (Wright) that there has been this offseason.

So you agree that not signing Reyes may have been a good thing, but think that if the front office was spending they would have kept him? So actually spending money does not equate to being smart? Maybe they didn't trade him because they knew that would kill any chance of resigning him.

[metswon69]

So you agree that not signing Reyes may have been a good thing, but think that if the front office was spending they would have kept him? So actually spending money does not equate to being smart? Maybe they didn't trade him because they knew that would kill any chance of resigning him.

I don't think they had any intentions of re-signing him really. Especially knowing the Marlins were looking to make a splash last offseason with Reyes particularly in mind.

My point is more to the fact that ownership doesn't have the resources to make the moves they used to be able to make (Like Beltran, Piazza, etc etc). A big market FA has all of a sudden become too expensive for a big market team.

That includes big market FA going forward.

[bootleg42]

The Wilpons aren't going to be forced to sell the team because they want to own and control the entire willets point area (the area where Citifield is located). Apart from the Maddoff scandal, they probably lost a ton of money in the housing bubble, and controlling Willets Point is the way to recover and gain mega profit.

For those who don't know about where Citifield is located, it's located in a very empty area that is located in between the hispanic part of queens, and the asian part of queens. It basically serves like a border in between those two areas.

That area is basically only the stadium (Citifield), and old businesses that deal with car parts. It's rather old/dirty and not very commercial. The Wilpons want to take the entire area over to develop it into malls and things like that so that they can make that whole area a mega profit zone, even if the Mets are bad.

With this in mind, the Wilpons will probably not sell the team, and MLB will not force anything.

Are they the worst mega market owners in sports????? I'll give that title to James Dolan. But the Wilpons are not that far away.

[metswon69]

The Wilpons aren't going to be forced to sell the team because they want to own and control the entire willets point area (the area where Citifield is located). Apart from the Maddoff scandal, they probably lost a ton of money in the housing bubble, and controlling Willets Point is the way to recover and gain mega profit.

For those who don't know about where Citifield is located, it's located in a very empty area that is located in between the hispanic part of queens, and the asian part of queens. It basically serves like a border in between those two areas.

That area is basically only the stadium (Citifield), and old businesses that deal with car parts. It's rather old/dirty and not very commercial. The Wilpons want to take the entire area over to develop it into malls and things like that so that they can make that whole area a mega profit zone, even if the Mets are bad.

With this in mind, the Wilpons will probably not sell the team, and MLB will not force anything.

Are they the worst mega market owners in sports????? I'll give that title to James Dolan. But the Wilpons are not that far away.

If you haven't noticed the Knicks are 6-0 this season (and obviously made the playoffs last year) and the Rangers are Stanley Cup contenders if they have a season.

He has certainly spent the money to improve those teams (after having mismanaged that money for several years through the likes of Isaiah Thomas)

Either way, the Mets are a different set of circumstances. The problem is the Wilpons could conceivably not have the resources to afford a big market franchise.

There's a big difference between mismanaging a team's resources and not having them.

That's where i believe the Wilpons are currently at.

We know Bud won't do anything about the Wilpons, but he certainly shouldn't let his affinity for them cloud what's best for the Mets.

How many years are the Mets going to be mediocre without having the larger market resources to improve the team?

It's been 2 years and counting.

[bootleg42]

If you haven't noticed the Knicks are 6-0 and the Rangers are Stanley Cup contenders if they have a season.

He has certainly spent the money to improve those teams (after having mismanaged that money for several years through the likes of Isaiah Thomas)

Not to get into this here but Dolan was the one who destroyed the Knicks (and Rangers) even before Isiah Thomas came in. Only after the NBA forced him to bring in legit people did the Knicks become better. I wish MLB could also force something for the Mets. Seeing how they handled the Marlins, it looks like they won't.

Either way, the Mets are a different set of circumstances. The problem is the Wilpons could conceivably not have the resources to afford a big market franchise.

There's a big difference between mismanaging a team's resources and not having them.

That's where i believe the Wilpons are currently at.

We know Bud won't do anything about the Wilpons, but he certainly shouldn't let his affinity for the Wilpons cloud what's best for the Mets.

How many years are the Mets going to be mediocre without having the larger market resources to improve the team?

It's been 2 years and counting.

That's why the Wilpons want to get control of Willets Point. If they don't, they probably will eventually get exposed and be forced to sell the team. I hope the Wilpons don't get Willet Point, and that the team is sold.

[metswon69]

Not to get into this here but Dolan was the one who destroyed the Knicks (and Rangers) even before Isiah Thomas came in. Only after the NBA forced him to bring in legit people did the Knicks become better. I wish MLB could also force something for the Mets. Seeing how they handled the Marlins, it looks like they won't.

That's why the Wilpons want to get control of Willets Point. If they don't, they probably will eventually get exposed and be forced to sell the team. I hope the Wilpons don't get Willet Point, and that the team is sold.

As bad as Dolan has been, i would take Dolan in a millisecond over what's become of the Wilpons. (Money being the major reason)

He let Sather run the Rangers properly without meddling and now they are reaping the rewards of that.

As for the Knicks, Grunwald has done a very good job of assembling this roster (and Donnie Walsh before that). They are spending money in the correct areas to build a perennial winner with both teams.

I don't see that from the Mets nor do i see it in the future.

My concern is that when a Mike Stanton or a Jason Heyward is out there in FA are the Mets even going to be in the discussion to acquire a player of that caliber?

I don't see it.

Not the way the Wilpons have been spending the last 3 offseasons (including this one).

I don't want to have us be the Kansas City Royals of the NL East.