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  1. #76
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    The Marlins theory is you have one year to win, if you don't win scrap it and if you win a championship do the same thing because you can't afford payroll because your fanbase is the weakest in baseball. They had only 2.2 million show up in their stadium's inaugural season. How many do you think are coming next season when they are fielding a majority of wet behind the ear players?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER SEAVER View Post
    They need to be contracted out of the league then. Florida is not a baseball state even when they won championships they weren't. If you can never field a great team for more than one season then you have no business being in baseball. The Mets are an emarrassment but if the Mets can't afford guys they won't sign them, not double payroll then a month after the season ends you have a firesale. The Mets have their faults God knows but this Miami franchise is sad. There is something fishy going on down there no pun intended.
    I don't disagree that Miami is a terrible place for baseball. They never should have expanded there. But they were kind of in a tough position here. They needed a new stadium, and there was no way to build excitement for that stadium with their 2011 roster. So they made some high-profile signings. Had they been successful, I have no doubt they would have kept them around. But they didn't, and selling was really the only option.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    I don't disagree that Miami is a terrible place for baseball. They never should have expanded there. But they were kind of in a tough position here. They needed a new stadium, and there was no way to build excitement for that stadium with their 2011 roster. So they made some high-profile signings. Had they been successful, I have no doubt they would have kept them around. But they didn't, and selling was really the only option.
    But if the fan interest just isn't there then you can build a solid gold cathedral ballpark it won't get them to show up. Maybe Guillen was the problem, wrong mix with those players. I think they should have given it a shot with Redmond.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    I don't disagree that Miami is a terrible place for baseball. They never should have expanded there. But they were kind of in a tough position here. They needed a new stadium, and there was no way to build excitement for that stadium with their 2011 roster. So they made some high-profile signings. Had they been successful, I have no doubt they would have kept them around. But they didn't, and selling was really the only option.
    They might not have it attendance was a continual issue and knowing Loria's MO.

    They build, they win (or in this year's case lose), they break apart.

    That's his style.

    Honestly it's too bad they can't contract that team anymore because they probably should be the way they are going.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    They certainly carried enough attendance last year to support a 100 million dollar payroll.

    The Marlins are a bigger disaster because this is their MO, they spend a lot in an offseason (like they did with Delgado several years back) and then deal this players after one mediocre season.

    The Mets are also not talking about running around with 15 million dollar payroll in 2013 (maybe less if they deal Nolasco).

    As bad as the Met's owners are, they don't blow up winners that get too expensive and losers that are even more expensive after one season.
    Right, because keeping Bay after one mediocre season worked out so well? Instead of dicking around and hoping that this ill-fitting crew could turn it around in front of an empty house (I'd love to see the figures you base the claim that htey could support a $100 million payroll; looking at their numbers, they drew less than we did, and we lost money this year with something like $27 million less in payroll)

    I'm not saying blowing up your team after a title is a good idea--though I admit it makes sense when you can't draw fans even when you're winning--but I can't fault them now. The alternative was to be mired in payroll hell for the next 5-7 years.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    They might not have it attendance was a continual issue and knowing Loria's MO.

    They build, they win (or in this year's case lose), they break apart.

    That's his style.

    Honestly it's too bad they can't contract that team anymore because they probably should be the way they are going.
    The fact that the same thing happened after the 97 championship team with a different owner should tell you that it's not so much Loria's style as it is the reality of owning a professional baseball team in southern Florida.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    Right, because keeping Bay after one mediocre season worked out so well? Instead of dicking around and hoping that this ill-fitting crew could turn it around in front of an empty house (I'd love to see the figures you base the claim that htey could support a $100 million payroll; looking at their numbers, they drew less than we did, and we lost money this year with something like $27 million less in payroll)

    I'm not saying blowing up your team after a title is a good idea--though I admit it makes sense when you can't draw fans even when you're winning--but I can't fault them now. The alternative was to be mired in payroll hell for the next 5-7 years.
    They have their own tv contract money (along with revenue sharing and national tv money) that goes with the money made at the stadium (which i am sure they were charging a pretty penny for being a new ballpark and all compared to Sun Life Stadium)

    The Met's losing money again this year has to due with prior incompetence over the past 3 seasons. It also has to due with the massive financial debt the Wilpons have against SNY and Citi Field.

    The Marlins had 80% of their ballpark paid for in taxpayer money from the city of Miami.

    As for Bay, how did they know his career would drop off the map?

    He had one bad season in 2010 and they expected him to bounce back in 2011 and 2012. He didn't but they weren't just going to flush 66 million dollars down the toilet and release him from year 2 (Would you do that with your money?)

    At least the Marlins were lucky enough to deal off their bad contracts, the Mets can't even get that lucky.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-14-2012 at 02:09 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER SEAVER View Post
    But if the fan interest just isn't there then you can build a solid gold cathedral ballpark it won't get them to show up. Maybe Guillen was the problem, wrong mix with those players. I think they should have given it a shot with Redmond.
    Guillen is a good coach who was fired more for his PR disasters than for his ability to manage a team. That, and he probably made too much money considering the route they've decided to take.

    As for the stadium, what is Loria supposed to do, contract himself? Can't blame the guy for trying.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    The fact that the same thing happened after the 97 championship team with a different owner should tell you that it's not so much Loria's style as it is the reality of owning a professional baseball team in southern Florida.
    That's fine but 1997 was only 5 years into their existence.

    They must have believed their was time to develop an audience in southern Florida given the heavy Hispanic influence down there (and their affinity for baseball).

    It hasn't worked out but MLB and the City of Miami is as much at fault for this than anyone else.

    They have talking about possibly contracting the Marlins for several years now and they instead gave them a new ballpark no one will go to regardless of how they are doing in the standings.

    It hasn't worked in Tampa (attendance wise) and it won't work in Miami.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-14-2012 at 02:10 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    They have their own tv contract money (along with revenue sharing and national tv money) that goes with the money made at the stadium (which i am sure they were charging a pretty penny for being a new ballpark and all compared to Sun Life Stadium)
    That's not what you said. You said their attendance was high enough to support a $100 million dollar payroll. Clearly it was not. And I sincerely doubt their tickets cost as much as Citi Field's did.

    The Met's losing money again this year has to due with prior incompetence and losing money the last 3 seasons. It also has to due with the massive financial debt the Wilpons have against SNY and stadium.
    I don't know what losing money this year has to do with losing money the last three seasons, nor what "prior incompetence" is supposed to mean, but no doubt debt plays a role. Not likely as large a role as you say, however.

    The Marlins had 80% of their ballpark paid for in taxpayer money from the city of Miami.
    And we had 50%, so it's not like they got it for free.

    As for Bay, how did they know his career would drop off the map?
    Not the point. The point is that the Marlins are smart for not paying tens of millions of dollars to find out. If we could have found an out after that first year, we probably would have taken it. We were looking for one last year.

    He had one bad season in 2010 and they expected him to bounce back in 2011 and 2012. He didn't but they weren't just going to flush 66 million dollars down the toilet and release him from year 2.
    What the hell are you talking about? Who's talking about releasing anyone? The Marlins didn't flush millions down the toilet. They got somebody else to pick up the tab, which is really smart.

    At least the Marlins were lucky enough to deal off their bad contracts, the Mets can't even get that lucky.
    It's not luck. It's smarts. This is the third time they've turned a bunch of big contracts into a clean slate.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    That's fine but 1997 was only 5 years into their existence.
    So? The point is that this is two different owners now who have accepted the fact that baseball doesn't sell in Florida.

    They must have believed their was time to develop an audience in southern Florida given the heavy Hispanic influence down there (and their affinity for baseball).
    Or they saw the numbers and realized that it wasn't financially possible to maintain an expensive team in Miami, thus deciding it was necessary to sell while the selling was good.

    It hasn't worked out but MLB and the City of Miami is as much at fault for this than anyone else.

    They have talking about possibly contracting the Marlins for several years now and they instead gave them a new ballpark no one will go to regardless of how they are doing in the standings.

    It hasn't worked in Tampa (attendance wise) and it won't work in Miami.
    I agree. But this isn't the Marlins' fault, which is my whole point. They're only doing what is financially wise. I thought Mets fans, of all people, would appreciate that.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    That's not what you said. You said their attendance was high enough to support a $100 million dollar payroll. Clearly it was not. And I sincerely doubt their tickets cost as much as Citi Field's did.

    I don't know what losing money this year has to do with losing money the last three seasons, nor what "prior incompetence" is supposed to mean, but no doubt debt plays a role. Not likely as large a role as you say, however.

    And we had 50%, so it's not like they got it for free.

    Not the point. The point is that the Marlins are smart for not paying tens of millions of dollars to find out. If we could have found an out after that first year, we probably would have taken it. We were looking for one last year.

    What the hell are you talking about? Who's talking about releasing anyone? The Marlins didn't flush millions down the toilet. They got somebody else to pick up the tab, which is really smart.

    It's not luck. It's smarts. This is the third time they've turned a bunch of big contracts into a clean slate.
    Fine juxtapose attendance, regional tv money, national tv money, and revenue sharing and there is no question the Marlins should be able to afford that type of payroll.

    As in regards to stadium allocation paid for by public funds, 80% of the stadium being paid is obviously significantly more than half.

    You were who said "Keeping Bay after one mediocre season worked out so well", what were the Mets supposed to do with him?

    They had guaranteed him 66 million dollars and there was no way they could have turned around and traded him after the season he had in 2010.

    His value was essentially worthless and no team would have taken on his salary for a guy that was a 1 rWAR player in 2010 and worse in 2011/2012.

    Prior incompetence in regards to bad contracts (for example such as Perez, Castillo) who they were still paying for not being on the field.

    The Mets are looking to re-sign their bigger market guys this offseason in Dickey and Wright. They certainly wouldn't ship them off after one bad season like the Marlins would.

    And it is luck in some regards, you need to know when to deal these guys and get value back for them.

    Saying that, if you look at this deal, the Marlins certainly gave up a lot more than they will possibly receive in return. Nicolino and Marisnick are the only really promising prospects in the deal, that's alot to give up for Buerhle, Johnson, Reyes, Bonifacio and Buck.

    Hechevarria has upside but those PCL numbers are never a great gauge on ability, Alvarez is looked at a possible future reliever, and Desclafini has had decent success in A Ball (but is 22 years old already)
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-14-2012 at 06:29 AM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    So? The point is that this is two different owners now who have accepted the fact that baseball doesn't sell in Florida.

    Or they saw the numbers and realized that it wasn't financially possible to maintain an expensive team in Miami, thus deciding it was necessary to sell while the selling was good.
    Miami certainly has the demographics and the population that baseball should do well there.

    I don't know why it doesn't but for some reason it doesn't. (Maybe that has to do with the all the retired people from the Northeast that live down there who love the Mets, Yankees, and Red Sox)

    Unfortunately, what can they do about it now?

    Baseball gave Miami the ASG in 2015 and if they weren't contracted already they certainly won't be now.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-14-2012 at 05:34 AM.

  14. #89
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    Jays still have pieces for R.A....

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealingSigns View Post
    Jays still have pieces for R.A....
    We wanted Marisnick

    I'll still take D'Arnaud coupled with other prospects but we really needed an OF prospect.

    Maybe Gose too but it needs to be the right group of specs.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-14-2012 at 04:59 AM.

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