Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 46 to 58 of 58
  1. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Trinidad and Tobago
    Posts
    14,914
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by JayW_1023 View Post
    Wilt. The best individual player ever witnessed. But MJ has the best overlap in win columns and individual accomplishments.
    Please tell more about this best individual player ever witnessed.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    34,972
    vCash
    833
    Lebron is going to be top 2 when he retires.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Queens,NYC,NY
    Posts
    4,589
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by knicks=love View Post
    "i'm not sure if this counts.." does not say "this doesn't count". even so, why the **** would you even compare a duo to one player?
    JJJ please tell this guy he is jiving me. Tell em that its alright.

    Born a Knick Live a Knick Die a Knick
    Knicks-Jets-Yanks-Chris Paul-St.Johns-Duke Fan

  4. #49
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    27,982
    vCash
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by Avenged24 View Post
    Lebron??????????? what in the world

    i mean sure MAYBE when it's all set and done for him, but he's asking "Who do you think IS better?"

    If we're talking peak, Lebron is right there with MJ. If he can now sustain this peak for a few more years and win 2-3 more championships, he's got a shot to be the best ever.

    Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III, and Colin Kaepernick walk into a bar... To watch Russell Wilson win the Super Bowl.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    12
    vCash
    1500
    Mike James. The Chicago player is the best

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    HCA (Homecourt Advantage)
    Posts
    65,506
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by baller101200 View Post
    If we're talking peak, Lebron is right there with MJ. If he can now sustain this peak for a few more years and win 2-3 more championships, he's got a shot to be the best ever.
    Time for me to stop hating on Lebron. But I think he may be Jordan #2 just not as good as the original but close enough.

    As for the topic, I don't use just rings when rating which is why guys like Gretzky and Ruth are my GOAT's in Hockey and Baseball despite not having the most rings. I compare the whole package.

    Jordan didn't need 11 rings because he was on a completely different level than Russell statistically (and also Russell won 25 series to get 11 rings, MJ had to win 24 series to just get 6 rings, so the situation was not comparable here.)

    MJ didn't need to average 50 ppg like Wilt because he was on a completely different level than Wilt in terms of accolades/titles (at least 100% more of the important accolades/titles - MVP's/FMVP's/titles etc.).

    Lebron, however, cannot possibly be on another level from Jordan statistically
    (he may end up being as good (right now MJ is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs) if he keeps up current/similar production in the regular and postseasons for another 6-8 years; it would be a marginal difference, however, unlike Russell/MJ).
    Lebron also cannot amass enough accolades/titles to put himself on another level from MJ (5 MVP's, 10-11 top 3 MVP finishes, 6 FMVP's, 6 titles, defensive recognition etc.), so he would have to differentiate himself some other way - namely, statistically - but as we've seen, he really can't do that either. So yeah, he does have to basically match or exceed Jordan in all of these areas (accolades/titles, production, defensive impact), since it's unlikely that he can do enough in one of those categories to completely shatter what Jordan did in that category so as to make his sum total case for GOAT stronger overall.

    Few people really grasp the enormity of what Jordan accomplished.

    So to me things if the debate ever got close, MJ going 24-0 in series with HCA and always winning as the man and not having anyone on his teams who won league or finals mvp and also taking a franchise that never won before prior to him arriving and turning it into a dynasty is what I would consider a tie breaker sort to speak.

    Remember the HCA, Taking an organization that never won before, etc only matters if the players are close to the same level.
    So Isiah Thomas doing it on the Pistons doesn't mean much when comparing him to Magic Johnson or Larry Bird, but in comparison to someone like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, etc it does.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    HCA (Homecourt Advantage)
    Posts
    65,506
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJohnHorn View Post
    I know people have different ideas of who the greatest player of all time is. And I've seen in discussions on here lately how some people feel Kobe or Wade should be ranked among the all-time greats, but it seems that for most people Jordan is the clear-cut number one. I admit that, being a Detroit fan from back in the day, I hated Jordan, but I always recognized his greatness. That said, I don't think Jordan is the clear-cut greatest player of all time. I think there were players in his own generation that were as good and perhaps better than him, though I have come to appreciate what he did throughout his career (I mean, that season where he averages 32 points, 8 assists AND 8 rebounds a game to go along with almost 3 steals while shooting 53% from the floor! CRAZY!!! Will never be matched again I think).

    So that said, who do you think is better than Jordan, and why? And if you do have Jordan ranks as the greatest of all time, what is the one player you think is in the conversation with Jordan? And while we are on the topic, which season do you think was Jordan's best?
    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

    For me, Bird and Magic were obvious picks because they both had such great all-around games. They were both better playmakers than Jordan, and both and both shot at a higher percentage than Jordan. Jordan's one-on-one defence was better than both, and he was likely the best pure scorer, but Bird was the better shooter.

    As for his era specifically, because I think Bird and Magic were both of their own era (the 80's), the guys who I thought competed on the same level as Jordan were; Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, Robinson and Stockton. I put a lot of value into rebounding the ball, so Barkley, Malone, Hakeek and Robinson all ranks high with because of that, but they were also all great scorers who shot at a higher percentage than Jordan, though Jordon is the best pure scorer of the lot, and though Jordan was the better play maker than any of them, they were each very good player makers for their respective positions, Barkley perhaps the best of the lot. Jordon though, I think is is fair to say, aged better than all of them save Malone. Hakeem and Robinson were both great defenders as well, amazing shot-blocks and they both got a lot of steals. As for Stockton, well, he, like Jordan, was a guard, and so having a high FG% was a little harder for him (you expect post players to have high FG%s than guards), but Stockton's FG% and 3pt% were both higher than Jordan, and Stockton is the greatest play maker in the history of the game. Stockton played that part of the game better than anybody before him, and better than anybody since. His one-on-one defense was not as good as Jordan, and though Stockton was the better shooter, Jordan was the more versatile scorer, but Stockton's team-defense (he was a great help defender, even as a rookie) and ability to pass the guarding lanes warrants some great appreciation. Stockton aged very well as well, which before him was very rare for a PG (one need look not further than Isiah Thomas who was considered in his prime to be one of the best PG in the history of the game and by 32 was no longer performing at an All-Star level and was perhaps the biggest reason why Detroit fell off the map so quickly after being swept by the Bulls in 1991, despite having a relatively young core group of players).

    As for the generation since Jordan, Duncan, Garnett, Shaq and LBJ are the guys I would put in the conversation as playing at Jordan's level. I wouldn't say any of the above mentioned players are better than Jordan, but I think they all played on the same level as Jordan during their primes.

    Who you got?


    Magic was great, but IMO how can you be considered the best of all time if you were not great on both ends? This is a big reason why MJ, Kareem and Wilt are the 3 most talked about for GOAT. Because while Russell has the titles and the defense, he wasn't great on offense. Magic has the offense and playmaking ability but he wasn't great on defense.

    As for why Jordan is usually the majority pick for GOAT over those two in particular (disregarding Wilt/Kareem etc.), there are a couple of reasons:


    - Statistical dominance. Though Magic and Bird both put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird and Magic did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd.



    - Achievements, such as MVP's, Finals MVP's, DPOY award, and first-team and defensive first-team selections. Jordan had 5 MVP's to Magic and Bird's 3 apiece; he had 6 Finals MVP's to Magic's 3 and Bird's 2. He had a DPOY award that Magic and Bird could never hope to get. He had 10 all-NBA first-team selections to Magic's 9 and Bird's 9. Yes, Magic would have had more had he not retired and Bird would've had more if not for injuries, but Jordan would have also had 2 more had he not retired in '93, and likely a third had he not broken his foot in '86, so it's no use playing the "what if" game. Jordan also had 9 defensive first-team selections to Magic's none and Bird's 3 defensive second-team selections.


    - Championships. Simply put, Jordan (6) has more than either Bird (3) or Magic (5). Yes, Bird and Magic had to beat each other for rings, which precluded either of them from getting more, but they each also had tons more help than Jordan did. Regardless, arguments about league strength aside, Jordan just has more, and his period of dominance was longer than Magic or Bird's. Also, this is only one aspect of the overall picture, so even if you feel that MJ's 6 rings don't hold as much weight as Magic's 5 (though I personally feel that the strength of Magic's supporting cast relative to Jordan's is enough to counterbalance the supposedly "weaker era" and make them relatively equal accomplishments)-- but if you disagree, then just realize that this is only one aspect of a larger picture.


    - Overall skill. All three were among the top 5 or 6 most skilled players of all-time imo, and each had advantages over the others in various areas. Bird was the best rebounder of the bunch, Magic the best passer, Jordan the best scorer and defender. However, in their respective primes, the edges that Bird and Magic had on Jordan in these categories is not as large as the edge that Jordan had on Magic and Bird in his pet categories. For example, in his prime, Bird was capable of getting 13-17 rebounds on any given night, while in his prime, Jordan was capable of grabbing 11-14 rebounds on any given night. Magic in his prime could dish out 13-17 assists on any given night, whereas Jordan in his prime could dish out 10-14 assists on any given night. However, scoring-wise, Jordan was good for 45-55 on any given night while Bird was good for about 35-40 or so on any given night, and Magic "only" about 30-35.

    Also defensively, Jordan was capable of disrupting entire teams' offenses in a way that neither Magic nor Bird were ever remotely capable of; he was also capable of playing lock-down defense, which neither of them really could, and he did so fairly consistently. I have a game vs. Boston on DVD from '88 where Jordan has 8 steals at the half, and Boston literally could not run the plays they wanted to because of Jordan's presence on the court. Bird looked exasperated. He could almost singlehandedly take opposing big men out of the game with his help defense from up top and the weak side. At any rate, the gap in defense between Jordan and Magic/Bird is much more significant than Bird's edge in rebounding and Magic's edge in passing in their respective primes imo. At the very least, these 3 are a wash skill-wise.


    - Clutch play and dominance. Magic was clutch, to be certain, even if his clutchness often manifested itself in different ways than MJ's clutchness usually did. Bird was, obviously, a top 3 clutch player all-time (along w/Jordan and West imo), so he's in that conversation. Still, Jordan is generally considered to be the most clutch of the three, though it's not a huge advantage by any means. While all three were capable of beating you with the shot, rebound, or pass (some better than others in each category, but all capable), Jordan was a clutch defender as well, and could come up with the key block or steal or denial of a shot attempt by his man when it counted to a far greater degree than either Bird or Magic. Bird and Magic made up for their comparative lack of defensive ability with their canniness (e.g., Bird's steal vs. Detroit in the ECF), but it wasn't nearly on the same level as Jordan. Also, of the two, only Bird approaches Jordan's dominance over the league in terms of "who is the biggest bad guy? Who don't you want to piss off?" Bird was a bad, bad man. Jordan was badder, and he maintained that status for longer (through no fault of Bird's own; his injuries really robbed him of a few of his prime years).


    You put all these things together and it's difficult to pick Magic or Bird over Jordan, for me at least. I have no problem admitting that all are on the same relative level. If Bird's prime wasn't cut short, he would've went down as better than Magic imo, since his peak play ('84-'86) was better than Magic's peak play ('86-'89). Like Jerry West said of Jordan in 1993: "he's the best offensive player in the league, he's the best defensive player in the league, and he's the best competitor, playing on a team that, while suited to him, is not an ideal team. He carries that team; and very rarely do you see players carry teams to victories, much less championships. And if there's ever going to be a player who comes along that's better, I think we're all going to be sitting here scratching our heads."

    I think most people would say either Jordan or one of the big three. Jordan has a couple of advantages there -- he played most recently and played a different position, so the three centers split some votes.
    Personally I think the only two players that you can make a case for as greatest ever are Russell and Jordan. To me its those two and then Jabbar,Wilt,Magic,and Bird in any order. I think these 6 players are by themselves ahead of anyone else. My problem with naming Jabbar the greatest is he failed to win some titles that i thought he should have won if he was the greatest ever. I didn't see Jabbar win any titles that I thought Russell or Jordan couldn't have won if surrounded equal talent as Jabbar was.

    Thats the same reason that I wouldn't rank Wilt,Magic,or Bird as high as Russell or Jordan. I saw Wilt,Magic,Bird,and Jabbar fail at times where I thought if they were realy the greatest they should have won the titles or at least done better. Russell and Jordan in my opinion won the title everytime they were surrounded by enough talent that someone considered the greatest ever should win a title. Jabbar was surrouned by a very good Bucks team in 73 and failed to even make it past the Warriors. In 81 surrounded by a great Laker team he lost to the Rockets. In 83 surrounded by a great Laker team he was swept by the 76ers. I couldn't see this happening to Russell or Jordan.

    Coincidentally they have the best records in series with HCA as well.

    Code:
     
                  HCA(50+)/non-50     
    Jordan:       14-0 / 10-0          
    Russell:      10-0 / 12-1       
    Shaq:         11-2 / 12-2        
    Magic:        9-2 / 20-1          
    Duncan:       15-5 / 8-1          
    Jabbar:       11-3 / 23-2         
    Olajuwon:     4-0 / 5-2           
    Bird:         10-6 / 14-1         
    Wilt:         4-3 / 9-2           
    Tmac:         0-2 / 0-0           
    Kobe:         18-2 / 7-0         
    Lebron:       2-3/ 10-0           
    Wade:         2-2/ 8-0            
    Durant:       2-1/ 2-0
    Now Russell did win 11 titles, but you also gotta remember for 8 of those titles there were only 2 rounds and the other 3 there were 3 rounds. He basically won 25 playoff series for those 11 titles, while nowadays you have to win 4 series to even win a title. So this is why saying 11 titles doesn't mean much when there were far less series to win. Now had he had to win 4 series yearly that would be a different story. Jordan on the other had to win 24 series to just get 6 titles. So using 11 titles is more than 6 doesn't matter here when all you had to do was win 25 series to get 11 titles while the other guy had to win 24 to just get 6 titles.
    Also by comparison Russell won 27 playoff series in his career while Jordan won 30 playoff series in his career.
    Jordan won each of his as the best player on his team, the same can't be said for Russell as he did not lead his team in PER and Win Shares ever year.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    656
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by baller101200 View Post
    If we're talking peak, Lebron is right there with MJ. If he can now sustain this peak for a few more years and win 2-3 more championships, he's got a shot to be the best ever.
    what year/years do you consider to be Lebron's peak?

    Jordan's peak was 88-91 for a good 4 seasons where he averaged 33-6.6-6.4 54%fg 2.9 steals 1 block 61%TS and .3 WS48 in that span. And 34.5-7-7 52%FG 2.5steals 1 block 60%TS in the post season.

    the only part of Lebron's career that even matches Jordan's (statistically) was the 09 post season.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    216
    vCash
    1500
    Lebron

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Staten island Ny
    Posts
    18,988
    vCash
    1364
    Wilt is prob the closest one as of right now, not sure why only a few name him in the same league as MJ, Wilt was amazing.
    http://newyorkknicksmemesdotcom.file...73bd8ccc5d.gif
    Amare!!!!

    SIM LEAGUE SUNS
    Jason Kidd and Chris webber
    2000-2001 48-34 first round KO
    2001-2002 64-18 first round KO
    2002-2003 55-27. Second round KO
    2003-2004 46-36 second round KO game 7 loss
    2004-2005 42-40
    2005-2006 welcome Glenn big dog

    Sig bet with Mr. baller on Yankees making the playoffs loser has to hold
    SIG of the winners choice for entire playoffs

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    86
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Teufelshunde4 View Post
    Shaq isnt even all time top 10... Shaq never got the most out of his talent.. Very flawed player.

    Back to MJ.... MJ avg 32 a game when a defensive player would put you on your butt everytime you went to the hole.. Hand checking was not a foul then.. So everywhere MJ went a defender had a hand on him..

    Stockton was a great great player... Doesnt get he true desert IMO.. Few now a days remember how good Stockton was..
    Stockton was great and Rondo starting to mirror him. And MJ is GOAT stop bron fans.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    216
    vCash
    1500
    Lebron

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    \_(ツ)_/
    Posts
    63,752
    vCash
    500
    Magic and LeBron

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •