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  1. #226
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    BC set the franchise back by signing Fields and extending DeRozan. He gambled on the former in order to land Nash, and the latter will never live up to his contract. I don't think Colangelo uses advanced stats and only gave DeRozan his money based on obvious stats. These signings have cost the Raptors cap flexibility moving forward.

    If things improve from here hopefully they get to where they were last year with a top 6-8 pick. Yeah they lose the pick to OKC but how many draft projects does one team need anyway, they've been in the lottery for so long and are still stuck. Only if the team looks obviously bad with no hope of progress that maybe next time upper management will really house clean and the Raps can tank next year for Wiggins. If the Raps get close to sniffing the playoffs, management may not clean house. What's worse, BC will think the team has a chance and they lose out on getting Wiggins and the cycle continues. I'd rather hold out for a superstar prospect instead of continuing to draft and not hit any stand-outs.
    Last edited by Heediot; 11-28-2012 at 07:55 AM.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Mago50 View Post
    Tough one to call.

    For a small market team, to build a contender means having elite drafting abilities.

    Colangelo IMO is a top 5 GM in that regard in the whole league, getting Demar, Ross, Valanciunas and a ton of others (Amare, Marion, etc.) in the past.

    Does he have weaknesses (FA signings)? Of course.

    At this point, I stick with him because the only real blemishes he has are Turk for the most part. They should've jumped into the Asik sweepstakes which was a miss but other then that, he's done an admirable job.

    I really like Dwyane Casey as the coach but the fact is that certain key weaknesses on the roster need to be filled for him to get what he needs from this team.

    1. Calderon needs to go. As simple as that, I love the guy and he is very talented but unless he's surrounded by superstar caliber players, he hurts to have on a team because you simply cannot be a good defense with him on the floor. The solution is to get someone like CJ Watson who is a great defender at the position, can knock down a jumper and plays within himself.

    2. The bench post players both need to go. I really like Amir's energy and Ed does show promise but for this team to be successful, I think we need a solid defensive post player coming off of the bench, that might be a more seasoned Ed Davis or someone else. At the moment, we really struggle to defend inside with these two on the court. I would personally see if Houston would be willing to trade Ed Davis for Cole Aldrich. He is a guy that can finish around the bucket, is long and is a shot blocker. He's not a great player but I think that is the ideal player to be a backup post player, a role like Asik filled in Chicago.

    3. Time. Two of the current rotation players (Ross, Jonas) are rookies. THey need time to learn to play effectively on both ends in the NBA.

    4. The SF position. Is Ross a tweener at the position? For sure if they decide to put him there. Ross does crash the glass and can be a good man defender which Ronnie Brewer can teach us is not necessary to have inches on the guy. Avery Bradley, one of the league's elite one on one defenders, is a 6'2-6'3 SG/PG who has to guard guys 6'5-6'6 every night. What's so different about a 6'7 guy being asked to guard 6'8-6'9 if the guy is a good defender. On defense, moving your feet, crowding the guy and not giving him space to comfortably shoot are the fundamentals of on man defending. No where in there does it say you need equal height to your competition to shut them down.

    Finally, the most important fix:

    5. Charles Oakley. Not THE Charles Oakley but A CHARLES OAKLEY. The thing that the Raptors have lacked since the Carter Era is leadership and a guy who can chew guys out to keep them accountable. McGloire kind of filled that role but he doesn't command the respect on the court like Oakley did throughout his career. I think this is the biggest need for this team and one they need to fill asap. One can talk about changing culture, etc. and even have role models to live by that but until you have that guard dog that chews on anyone not walking on the sidewalk, you have inconsistency maintaining the effectiveness of the message.

    I loved Reggie Evans for this reason. He did this even with his on-court contribution. If you didn't put in the effort he did, you were embarrassed and made to look bad on the court. As injury prone as he is, the Toronto Raptors need Andrew Bogut. Bogut is a tough mofo who brings that edge to a team and passion to the court. Paul Millsap is another guy that fits that mold and could be had.

    This team needs someone with heart, grit and toughness.
    i notice you didn't apply the same logic you used in point #1 to andrea
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by psrs1 View Post
    In fact I did express my concerns if scroll through. My response was a concern I had when mile high cramped closed a thread on 3-10 is it time to panic? Ask for other posters to express their opinions. Mile high champ believed it to be a reaction thread to the game the previous night. The thread was in response to the current status of THIS season in totality based on first 13 games and go forward the next 69 games. I understand the overall philosophy of long time PSDers looking big picture not game to game. But if generally you cannot see where this now 3-13 start is going you have blinders on. Believe or not you can exert pressure on BC and MLSE through the media and even letters. Trust me as a long term season seat holder they do think about what fans say of them.
    I understand how pressure can be put on the franchise but you don't think this forum is a form of media that MLSE pays attention to do you?

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_at_york View Post
    I understand how pressure can be put on the franchise but you don't think this forum is a form of media that MLSE pays attention to do you?
    that's an interesting question.... i doubt very much anybody from the Raptors organization is monitoring these forums so that they can address the way the fans feel, but I think they would be foolish as business owners to not employ people whose job it is to sway public opinion on forums like these..... very interesting question indeed
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    that's an interesting question.... i doubt very much anybody from the Raptors organization is monitoring these forums so that they can address the way the fans feel, but I think they would be foolish as business owners to not employ people whose job it is to sway public opinion on forums like these..... very interesting question indeed
    I don't see that being worth hiring someone. Our community is such a small part of the Raptor fan population.

    Also if we had as much sway as psrs1 is saying then Bargs wouldn't still be here.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_at_york View Post
    I don't see that being worth hiring someone. Our community is such a small part of the Raptor fan population.

    Also if we had as much sway as psrs1 is saying then Bargs wouldn't still be here.
    that's not what i'm saying though. i don't think they surf the sites and bring the criticism to the organization and say "you have to do something about this! they hate Bargnani!".

    but i have no doubt that the good organizations have people that try and keep the general fan base feeling positive and optimistic.
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 11-28-2012 at 11:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    that's an interesting question.... i doubt very much anybody from the Raptors organization is monitoring these forums so that they can address the way the fans feel, but I think they would be foolish as business owners to not employ people whose job it is to sway public opinion on forums like these..... very interesting question indeed
    I doubt people in the organizations search through forums like these but I wouldn't be surprised if people in the media do. A couple weeks back someone in the Blue Jays forum told an anecdote about an experience he had with Gibbons and it found its way into an online article noting the positives of the hire. It is impossible to really know who looks at what, but between internet forums, social media outlets, fan reaction within the ACC, dialogue with fans at Raptor's events, etc.; there is no way that the organization doesn't catch wind of fan opinion.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Mago50 View Post
    Tough one to call.

    For a small market team, to build a contender means having elite drafting abilities.

    Colangelo IMO is a top 5 GM in that regard in the whole league, getting Demar, Ross, Valanciunas and a ton of others (Amare, Marion, etc.) in the past.

    Does he have weaknesses (FA signings)? Of course.

    At this point, I stick with him because the only real blemishes he has are Turk for the most part. They should've jumped into the Asik sweepstakes which was a miss but other then that, he's done an admirable job.

    I really like Dwyane Casey as the coach but the fact is that certain key weaknesses on the roster need to be filled for him to get what he needs from this team.

    1. Calderon needs to go. As simple as that, I love the guy and he is very talented but unless he's surrounded by superstar caliber players, he hurts to have on a team because you simply cannot be a good defense with him on the floor. The solution is to get someone like CJ Watson who is a great defender at the position, can knock down a jumper and plays within himself.

    2. The bench post players both need to go. I really like Amir's energy and Ed does show promise but for this team to be successful, I think we need a solid defensive post player coming off of the bench, that might be a more seasoned Ed Davis or someone else. At the moment, we really struggle to defend inside with these two on the court. I would personally see if Houston would be willing to trade Ed Davis for Cole Aldrich. He is a guy that can finish around the bucket, is long and is a shot blocker. He's not a great player but I think that is the ideal player to be a backup post player, a role like Asik filled in Chicago.

    3. Time. Two of the current rotation players (Ross, Jonas) are rookies. THey need time to learn to play effectively on both ends in the NBA.

    4. The SF position. Is Ross a tweener at the position? For sure if they decide to put him there. Ross does crash the glass and can be a good man defender which Ronnie Brewer can teach us is not necessary to have inches on the guy. Avery Bradley, one of the league's elite one on one defenders, is a 6'2-6'3 SG/PG who has to guard guys 6'5-6'6 every night. What's so different about a 6'7 guy being asked to guard 6'8-6'9 if the guy is a good defender. On defense, moving your feet, crowding the guy and not giving him space to comfortably shoot are the fundamentals of on man defending. No where in there does it say you need equal height to your competition to shut them down.

    Finally, the most important fix:

    5. Charles Oakley. Not THE Charles Oakley but A CHARLES OAKLEY. The thing that the Raptors have lacked since the Carter Era is leadership and a guy who can chew guys out to keep them accountable. McGloire kind of filled that role but he doesn't command the respect on the court like Oakley did throughout his career. I think this is the biggest need for this team and one they need to fill asap. One can talk about changing culture, etc. and even have role models to live by that but until you have that guard dog that chews on anyone not walking on the sidewalk, you have inconsistency maintaining the effectiveness of the message.

    I loved Reggie Evans for this reason. He did this even with his on-court contribution. If you didn't put in the effort he did, you were embarrassed and made to look bad on the court. As injury prone as he is, the Toronto Raptors need Andrew Bogut. Bogut is a tough mofo who brings that edge to a team and passion to the court. Paul Millsap is another guy that fits that mold and could be had.

    This team needs someone with heart, grit and toughness.
    Yikes.

    I agree with a lot of things that you outline in this post but couldn't disagree more with getting rid of our bench guys. Amir is what he is at this point. An energy big who can defend the 4/5 for 20 minutes a game. Ed on the other hand is showing serious progress for the first time in his career. I'd rather keep these two guys than Bargnani. Unfortunately I have a feeling if we're going to have a chance at ridding ourselves of Bargnani it's going to cost one of Ed/Ross.

    Couldn't agree more with the Raptors needing a serious veteran player with some game left. I've been saying it since the beginning of the season. I thought Gasol could do that if we had been in the playoff picture. Unfortunately that ship has sailed.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    i notice you didn't apply the same logic you used in point #1 to andrea
    I didn't involve Bargnani because perimeter defense at the point guard position is much more important then at the PF position.

    At the PG position, you are literally the link that breaks the whole machine if you constantly get beat on the perimeter which forces defensive collapses and as a result, easy open looks and layups to the guys being rotated from. Calderon has shown he is probably the worst PG in the league defensively for years now. Sure, I enjoyed that he put in more effort last year and lowered that inability a tad but even then, it was brutal to watch him defend anyone looking to get past him.

    If Calderon fails, the whole defense fails because his defense directly affects everyone elses on the defensive end.

    On the other hand, Bargnani is a bad help defender but he's an average post defender. He doesn't get lit up one on one but he won't turn you into a juggernaut on the defensive end obviously either. What's different is that Bargnani's role on defense in it's nature isn't anywhere as detrimental to the team if he doesn't play well. He's asked to rotate on penetration and play man defense in the post where he can easily get a perimeter player to quickly jump in and assist which is a lot easier to recover from. The defense as a whole doesn't need to adjust when the ball is thrown into the post the same way it has to on dribble penetration.

    I do agree Bargnani isn't a diamond on a defensive end, but he's also much less to blame for a team's defensive shortcomings then their front line stopping the penetration in the first place.
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  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureGM View Post
    Yikes.

    I agree with a lot of things that you outline in this post but couldn't disagree more with getting rid of our bench guys. Amir is what he is at this point. An energy big who can defend the 4/5 for 20 minutes a game. Ed on the other hand is showing serious progress for the first time in his career. I'd rather keep these two guys than Bargnani. Unfortunately I have a feeling if we're going to have a chance at ridding ourselves of Bargnani it's going to cost one of Ed/Ross.

    Couldn't agree more with the Raptors needing a serious veteran player with some game left. I've been saying it since the beginning of the season. I thought Gasol could do that if we had been in the playoff picture. Unfortunately that ship has sailed.
    I agree that Ed is young and showing some promise but I think that those two as our posts off the bench are a weak link. If you don't want to totally blow that up, it's time for Amir to go and to get a bench post shot blocking presence like a Cole Aldrich (someone in the mold of a Joel Pryzbilla, we have enough scoring)

    Everytime I see Amir line up a jumper I cringe, I have maybe seen one go in over the past few years. He's playing further and further away from the bucket which is where I wanna see his energy come to play on the offensive glass. He needs to be amnestied or traded and a proper backup big who fills a role needs to be brought in.
    Where Pick n Roll...Pick and Roll...Pick and Roll...Rebound Happens

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I doubt people in the organizations search through forums like these but I wouldn't be surprised if people in the media do. A couple weeks back someone in the Blue Jays forum told an anecdote about an experience he had with Gibbons and it found its way into an online article noting the positives of the hire. It is impossible to really know who looks at what, but between internet forums, social media outlets, fan reaction within the ACC, dialogue with fans at Raptor's events, etc.; there is no way that the organization doesn't catch wind of fan opinion.
    I feel that. To be honest most employees probably ARE fans and feel the same way we do but they can't go on TV and talk about how players need to be traded, or how their bosses are doing a terrible job.


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  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    that's not what i'm saying though. i don't think they surf the sites and bring the criticism to the organization and say "you have to do something about this! they hate Bargnani!".

    but i have no doubt that the good organizations have people that try and keep the general fan base feeling positive and optimistic.
    A friend of mine was an intern at MLSE a couple of years ago and they were instructed to keep tabs on certain sports medias for marketing research.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakazoid View Post
    A friend of mine was an intern at MLSE a couple of years ago and they were instructed to keep tabs on certain sports medias for marketing research.
    forums and social media are huge in forming public opinion and they feed off one another. a smart organization wouldn't ignore this.

    when it was clear Bosh was likely going to leave (but before anybody within the Raptors organization acknowledged that likelihood), all of sudden there were lots of people popping up in this forum talking about how it was for the best. what struck me wasn't that there were people who would think it was maybe a blessing in disguise - i understood the cons for sure (huge salary to keep him, dominates the ball on one end, etc) it was how dispassionate and matter of fact the arguments were. they didn't really seem like fans at all.

    you can draw what you'd like from that story but it makes sense to me from a public relations point of view to try and steer conversation in a direction that favors the organization. if it was my team i'd absolutely have one or more people who tried to counter the negative conversation. that's all i'm saying.

    it's really no different than being at a party and overhearing a bunch of people *****ing about Rogers. if you worked for Rogers you probably wouldn't go over and say so. but you might join the conversation and say "oh, that's weird. i've always had great experiences with Rogers.. yada yada yada... "
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 11-28-2012 at 01:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Mago50 View Post
    Tough one to call.

    For a small market team, to build a contender means having elite drafting abilities.

    Colangelo IMO is a top 5 GM in that regard in the whole league, getting Demar, Ross, Valanciunas and a ton of others (Amare, Marion, etc.) in the past.

    Does he have weaknesses (FA signings)? Of course.

    At this point, I stick with him because the only real blemishes he has are Turk for the most part. They should've jumped into the Asik sweepstakes which was a miss but other then that, he's done an admirable job.

    I really like Dwyane Casey as the coach but the fact is that certain key weaknesses on the roster need to be filled for him to get what he needs from this team.

    1. Calderon needs to go. As simple as that, I love the guy and he is very talented but unless he's surrounded by superstar caliber players, he hurts to have on a team because you simply cannot be a good defense with him on the floor. The solution is to get someone like CJ Watson who is a great defender at the position, can knock down a jumper and plays within himself.

    2. The bench post players both need to go. I really like Amir's energy and Ed does show promise but for this team to be successful, I think we need a solid defensive post player coming off of the bench, that might be a more seasoned Ed Davis or someone else. At the moment, we really struggle to defend inside with these two on the court. I would personally see if Houston would be willing to trade Ed Davis for Cole Aldrich. He is a guy that can finish around the bucket, is long and is a shot blocker. He's not a great player but I think that is the ideal player to be a backup post player, a role like Asik filled in Chicago.

    3. Time. Two of the current rotation players (Ross, Jonas) are rookies. THey need time to learn to play effectively on both ends in the NBA.

    4. The SF position. Is Ross a tweener at the position? For sure if they decide to put him there. Ross does crash the glass and can be a good man defender which Ronnie Brewer can teach us is not necessary to have inches on the guy. Avery Bradley, one of the league's elite one on one defenders, is a 6'2-6'3 SG/PG who has to guard guys 6'5-6'6 every night. What's so different about a 6'7 guy being asked to guard 6'8-6'9 if the guy is a good defender. On defense, moving your feet, crowding the guy and not giving him space to comfortably shoot are the fundamentals of on man defending. No where in there does it say you need equal height to your competition to shut them down.

    Finally, the most important fix:

    5. Charles Oakley. Not THE Charles Oakley but A CHARLES OAKLEY. The thing that the Raptors have lacked since the Carter Era is leadership and a guy who can chew guys out to keep them accountable. McGloire kind of filled that role but he doesn't command the respect on the court like Oakley did throughout his career. I think this is the biggest need for this team and one they need to fill asap. One can talk about changing culture, etc. and even have role models to live by that but until you have that guard dog that chews on anyone not walking on the sidewalk, you have inconsistency maintaining the effectiveness of the message.

    I loved Reggie Evans for this reason. He did this even with his on-court contribution. If you didn't put in the effort he did, you were embarrassed and made to look bad on the court. As injury prone as he is, the Toronto Raptors need Andrew Bogut. Bogut is a tough mofo who brings that edge to a team and passion to the court. Paul Millsap is another guy that fits that mold and could be had.

    This team needs someone with heart, grit and toughness.
    Good post. Well thought out.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    it's really no different than being at a party and overhearing a bunch of people *****ing about Rogers. if you worked for Rogers you probably wouldn't go over and say so. but you might join the conversation and say "oh, that's weird. i've always had great experiences with Rogers.. yada yada yada... "
    Really? I have had the opposite experience. I have had Rogers or Bell people admit they work there and slam their company or tell me how to fix the problem.

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