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  1. #1
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    How to fix the Pacers?

    Ive opened this thread as something of a catch all to discuss (as adults) ways the Pacers could improve this team without going outside of the organization (IE: FA signings, trades...etc) This is an idea thread. You can post what you think are the biggest concerns and how you think the team can fix them.

    This thread is for fun and good conversation.

    Here are a few of my concerns.

    Jump shooting - We are shooting a very low percentage from the field. Our jump shooters are not hitting shots and are not moving enough off the ball to get open. They need to catch the ball with some momentum.

    DJ Augustin - Here is someone i think should be making a much bigger impact on games, but hes been virtually invisible. He needs to be further involved in the offensive game plan. He can drive and kick, but there has been no driving... just passing around the perimeter which results in low percentage shots.

    The Charity Stripe - Since we are either only playing iso with Paul George, Throwing down low to West or passing it around the perimeter, we havent been getting to the free throw line on a consistent enough basis. We are leaving tons of points on the court with wide open (and sometimes not so wide open) missed jump shots. Instead of driving for the call when the clock is winding down, we throw up prayers. We have such physical and strong players, we are not being aggressive enough on offense.

    Assists - We have been losing the assist battle on a nightly basis. Im not really sure how to fix this one. I tend to think more pick and rolls, cuts the basket and just moving off the ball in general will help. Its not that we dont pass, we sometimes pass too much, its just on the outside so theres not usually positive results. We have players that we know can rack up assists, im really not understanding why we are doing so bad in this category.

    Please, feel free to comment and discuss.


    "In my eyes, life is likened to christian ideology... its molded into three parts best described by the divine comedy; inferno, purgatorio and paradiso. You can live it in self loathing and pity, obscurity and ambiguity, or with beauty and elegance. Does that make the ideology truth? no, it makes it an irrelevent metaphor." ;p

  2. #2
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    A lot of the faults can be blamed on the coach! I said this all year last year, and for some reason is worked, but Vogel only has like 3 simple plays. Most of our plays consist of two players doing something, while three stand and watch. I can play pick-up basketball and have more movement in the offense than the Pacers do in a game. It is terrible. Where are the back cuts? off the ball screens? Movement off the ball? All of Vogel's plays involve the ball and one other players screening or posting up. His inexperience as a coach is truly shining this year.Teams have adjusted to the pick n role and the post up. The opposing teams prepare for that before they play us, and Vogel does not have any plays outside of those two. That is how teams have beaten us this year. Teams are forcing us to shoot, and Vogel cannot draw up any other plays to keep teams honest. The blame goes on Vogel, not the players.

    If you want to argue that, look at DC. DC is putting up numbers for Dallas that he could never put up here. Once again for Dallas he seems like a good passer, and he was one before we got him. I doubt he just stopped being a good passer for us, and that the fact is, Vogel's system does not allow players to play at their best.

  3. #3
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    I think they should play Gerald Green more. With solid minutes, this guy will break out over time. He is a ticking time bomb right now.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by meadowlarklemon View Post
    I think they should play Gerald Green more. With solid minutes, this guy will break out over time. He is a ticking time bomb right now.
    Or Green is playing to the level he's peaked at... a bust. The guy has shown nothing in his career to say he is the kind of player he showed last year in 30 games. I'll say it again, 30 games. Green is not that good of a player.

  5. #5
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    The bench hasn't developed much of a chemistry together, which is i guess expected but last year we didn't have Mahimni, Augustin, or Green. I guess that's what happens when you completely re-do the bench. I, like cards, haven't been too impressed with Green thus far (nor that much in his career). He's an athletic freak, but that's it.

    The team lacks an identity with Granger out. Paul George needs to step up now more than ever. I'm also keeping a close eye on Hibbert.

    #iubb

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardinals1226 View Post
    Or Green is playing to the level he's peaked at... a bust. The guy has shown nothing in his career to say he is the kind of player he showed last year in 30 games. I'll say it again, 30 games. Green is not that good of a player.
    Well, he just scored 9 points off the bench in the first half alone.

    BTW, he's only 26. For the record, Steve Nash didn't break out til he was 26..........

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by meadowlarklemon View Post
    Well, he just scored 9 points off the bench in the first half alone.

    BTW, he's only 26. For the record, Steve Nash didn't break out til he was 26..........
    Nine points in the first half, watch out Wilt.

    Are you seriously comparing Nash to Green? How in the world are they comparable? Green entered the league at 18, while Nash was drafted at 22. Green was so bad he was traded three times, playing for four different teams before being cut and out of the league for two years. Nash may have broken out at 26, but that was his fourth season. Green is in his sixth (should be his eighth) season and still hasn't proven anything.

    Terrible comparison.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardinals1226 View Post
    Or Green is playing to the level he's peaked at... a bust. The guy has shown nothing in his career to say he is the kind of player he showed last year in 30 games. I'll say it again, 30 games. Green is not that good of a player.
    I agree with you post green more fit for the second unit ..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardinals1226 View Post
    Nine points in the first half, watch out Wilt.

    Are you seriously comparing Nash to Green? How in the world are they comparable? Green entered the league at 18, while Nash was drafted at 22. Green was so bad he was traded three times, playing for four different teams before being cut and out of the league for two years. Nash may have broken out at 26, but that was his fourth season. Green is in his sixth (should be his eighth) season and still hasn't proven anything.

    Terrible comparison.
    I was comparing their ages. Green is 26, Nash was 26 when he broke out. Their previous past or "paths" to success or possible success are irrelevant.

    You said he was a bust. How can he be a bust? He's 26, he's getting sufficient time on a competitive roster, he's on almost every Pacer highlight reel, and I just watched him score 15 pts. off of the bench. Not only that, but they really don't run many plays specifically for him.

    But the more he plays, the more he'll score......and the more they'll run plays for him. Regardless of his past, he's a hard worker and it's paying off.

    I think the Pacers were smart to pick him up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacersfan1967 View Post
    I agree with you post green more fit for the second unit ..
    What's wrong with comin' off the bench on a competitive team? He just needs more minutes and touches......he doesn't need to start.

  11. #11
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    Did Green do well with New Jersey last year? Yea. But who else did they have to score? It's easy to be a primary scoring option on a lottery team. His stats last year don't really give an indication of how good he is. Explosive athlete but I'm still looking for more. I don't see him as a true 6th man option.

    #iubb

  12. #12
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    Right now blame can be pointed in many different ways.

    1. We made a stupid trade to get rid of Collison. Although I do think Mahinmi and Augustin will play a lot better than this.

    2. Vogel's offense needs to improve a lot. Even last year's 42-24 team had lots of games where the majority of the offense is standing still.

    3. Roy Hibbert isn't even earning half of his contract right now.

    And obviously not having Granger is a huge blow. At least George Hill looks good, PG keeps getting better, and David West is a beast. I'm still confident we have a good team even without Granger.. and we just gotta find away to grind out some wins in the first half of the season without him.. and hopefully go on a run when he gets back later in the year.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacquewho? View Post
    Did Green do well with New Jersey last year? Yea. But who else did they have to score? It's easy to be a primary scoring option on a lottery team. His stats last year don't really give an indication of how good he is. Explosive athlete but I'm still looking for more. I don't see him as a true 6th man option.
    IDK he had 15 pts and 8 reb last night. I'm not so sure what weve been seeing is just a new team with a shuffling line-up, or the real Green. But i would be willing to bet its early season woes.

    I made this thread because there is something wrong with the fundamentals of the team. The lack of movement and shooting precision, although we have good shooters, is a problem.

    But, we have to remember theres still 75 games left to the season, weve only just begun and the team is still adjusting to the changes.

    Lets try to look at this another way. We replaced almost the entire bench with players that have never played together or in the same system. We lost Granger, but no one thought it would hurt as much as it did. Why?

    Well, he was our leading scorer, but my belief is that Granger was one piece of a 5 part puzzle that is our starting line-up. Granger was continuity. Even if the bench would struggle in the early part of the season, we would have had our most consistent players and team leaders out on the floor producing at a high level. 5 guys in, 5 guys out, 10 man rotation that gives our bench time to grow together. Now that is not the case. Its closer to a mix and match. Losing Granger was literally an equilibrium shift for the team.

    Im sure Vogel should take some of the blame for not drawing up more complex plays, or making certain strange personnel decisions, but i dont think he knows exactly what he has with about 50% of the roster. He has been trying to feature different players every night. I think when he feels comfortable with a starting line-up we will see some better overall coaching. Honestly this year i think hes trying to keep his head above water until this team finds its identity and continuity.


    "In my eyes, life is likened to christian ideology... its molded into three parts best described by the divine comedy; inferno, purgatorio and paradiso. You can live it in self loathing and pity, obscurity and ambiguity, or with beauty and elegance. Does that make the ideology truth? no, it makes it an irrelevent metaphor." ;p

  14. #14
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    I think the big question is: Is Vogel the right man for this job?

    Don't get me wrong I like Vogel's attitude and enthusiasm as a cheerleader...but IMO this is the last season for Shaw as an associate HC and he will most likely join P Jackson in LA with a stipulation on his contract of being the HC in waiting or he will take a HC job with another team. Personally I would rather go with Shaw over Vogel.

    I admit this team needs to play better on the court and no Granger hurts more than most of us thought it would...but it also doesn't help that they look very poorly coached with the turnovers, lack of assists, and general overall stagnant offense.
    Last edited by matthollabak; 11-11-2012 at 03:14 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthollabak View Post
    I think the big question is: Is Vogel the right man for this job?

    Don't get me wrong I like Vogel's attitude and enthusiasm as a cheerleader...but IMO this is the last season for Shaw as an associate HC and he will most likely join P Jackson in LA with a stipulation on his contract of being the HC in waiting or he will take a HC job with another team. Personally I would rather go with Shaw over Vogel.

    I admit this team needs to play better on the court and no Granger hurts more than most of us thought it would...but it also doesn't help that they look very poorly coached with the turnovers, lack of assists, and general overall stagnant offense.
    were asking the wrong questions here.

    Everyone in this forum, any fan of the Pacers knows that they will not fire Vogel. Its not going to happen. Honestly, i dont see any reason why they should. Therefor, asking weather or not he is the right man is a moot point for conversation. It will go nowhere.

    Besides, Shaw is a part of this team NOW. If the team isnt having success with him as an assistant HC, why would it be different for him as HC. Does vogel come off as the coaching tyrant that wont give his assistants opinion the time of day?

    Everything in bold i commented on in the previous post and had been brought up in posts before. Its understandable to feel this way, but we were almost 20 games above .500 last year. This year we have one major injury and dont perform to our potential in the first 7 games and as fans it seems like were freaking out a little talking about coaching changes that wont come.

    Let me repeat that there are 75 games left in the season. This team has very little continuity. You want us to cut down on turnovers? easier said than done. Playing inside out with a new player at SG, they may be just a half a second late to the spot they are supposed to be in, but that half second results in the defender getting the deflection and running the ball the other way for the score. Thats a continuity issue.

    this is a team that is used to playing with the same 5 starters and now has had 3 different players start at SG in the last 4 games. We have 7 new players on the roster and 4 of them that are a part of our regular rotation. Vogel and his staff need to figure this out. Training camp and preseason are not enough time with adjustments that big.

    I do think there are fundamental problems here, but it seems like these problems are being oversimplified by the fans. We dont put together teams, we dont create plays for those teams, we dont put a strategy together for the different personnel we have on the court, we dont put a strategy together for opposing teams and each time they switch personnel in and out or shift formation.

    With our leading scorer out, shouldnt we have been prepared for the worst? and to put it frankly, if this is our worst then we have a great season ahead of us when we start knocking down shots and get some solid bench play.

    If you want Vogel out, or have a serious problem with the way he is coaching, tell us specifically (and this isnt directed at anyone in particular) What you would do with the group of guys that we have, both starting and on the bench, differently. Thats the point of this thread.
    Last edited by ombada; 11-11-2012 at 06:24 PM.


    "In my eyes, life is likened to christian ideology... its molded into three parts best described by the divine comedy; inferno, purgatorio and paradiso. You can live it in self loathing and pity, obscurity and ambiguity, or with beauty and elegance. Does that make the ideology truth? no, it makes it an irrelevent metaphor." ;p

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