Trading Gordon instead of Stuckey: Bad Move?

[shyfly24]

Extrapolating only works with a good sample size. Using BG's 7 years, 4 with the bulls and 3 with us is a good extrapolation. IT IS NOT the same as using 8-2, which represents only 12% of a season to extrapolate the entire season.

We did suck following the trade. Yes, AI did leave the team, but I believe that was in march, just before the playoffs. Not that it would have made a difference had he played in the playoffs.

So it credits BG when he can shoot 40% for two years in spite of Stuck at point, but the year he didn't, it's Stucks fault. Well, if he is to be given such great credit for the two good years, why can't we hold him to the same standard and say he didn't get it done the year he didn't shoot 40%? He deserves the credit when he's got it going, but someone else is to blame when he doesn't? With basically the same players? Got it.

And holding to your standard: CB good year, following year Stuck - we suck. OK, I agree. But:


do we pin the lack of finals on CB? Or the lack of a chip? Using your standard from one year to the next:

2004 vs. 2005 finals - no chip - basically the same players.

2005 vs. 2006 no finals - basically the same players

2006 vs. 2007 no finals - basically the same players

2007 vs. 2008 no finals - bascially the same players.

Yes, we sucked in 2009. I'm not denying that. But I don't think it can all be blamed on Stuck. Look at the trend the last 3 years of CB. If you were a betting man, would you put money on the chip in spring 2009 given the previous 3 years of CB's reign? Givne that we basically had the same starting 5 each of those 6 years? And the 3 most recent years we didn't make the finals?

Dude stop! What your doing is ignorant. Those numbers hasn't happened, so its a mute point. Your just assuming this is what his numbers are gonna be IF he played those minutes. Not even considering the other factors that are involved. My example is using the exact same concept that your using, it has nothing w/ do w/ percentages.

Dude BG shot 40%+ from 3 EVERY year he has been in the league except that very one year. He is coming from a team w/ a good point guard in Rose to all of a sudden playing w/ stuckey. Don't you think that would be a surprise to him and he would have to adjust his game cause of it?

You wanna know why we can't hold him to the same standards, cause I provide facts, you provide assumptions. Why isn't stuckey the point guard any more if he made Gordon shoot 40%? No he is not cause he failed at that position. Why did Sheed Prince Hamilton and everyone else shoot such a great % and then all of a sudden shot horrible RIGHT WHEN STUCKEY TOOK OVER? Answer it!

So what your asking is why didn't we go to teh finals every year and win? Are you serious? Not even the lakers or Spurs can do that. The fact Chauncy won a championship w/o a superstar proves how great he is. Our team was relevant and made it to the conf finals every year but right when stuckey took over we fell so fast that everyone just gave up on him

[Gators123]

Don't even waste your time, mark. A few of us had this same conversation with Shyfly.

stuckey is scared, im so sick of him.

lol i'll diss him no matter what

He just said that a few minutes ago, thats all you need to know when you're debating with shyfly about Stuckey. Stuck could save a kid from a burning building and Shyfly would bash him for it.

[shyfly24]

Don't even waste your time, mark. A few of us had this same conversation with Shyfly.



He just said that a few minutes ago, thats all you need to know when you're debating with shyfly about Stuckey.

Ya and you learned the hard way eh? I guess after 3 years you finally just said enough

Your just pissed cause I was right about everything and all your advanced stats that your provided meant crap and all went down the drain. Funny how I dont see you using them anymore ever since stuckey has shown his true colors

And please stop stalking every one of my posts in every thread, thanks

[Gators123]

Ya and you learned the hard way eh? I guess after 3 years you finally just said enough

Your just pissed cause I was right about everything and all your advanced stats that your provided meant crap and all went down the drain. Funny how I dont see you using them anymore ever since stuckey has shown his true colors

And please stop stalking every one of my posts in every thread, thanks

maybe because its only been 8 games. Some of the sites I use just started updating their stats.

[shyfly24]

maybe because its only been 8 games. Some of the sites I use just started updating their stats.

lolllll okay, we'll wait to game 80 to judge stuckey. We'll just discard his other 5 years of crap he has provided.

So since they just updated them, please show us stuckey's advanced stats

And please compare them to BG
lol

[Gators123]

lolllll okay, we'll wait to game 80 to judge stuckey. We'll just discard his other 5 years of crap he has provided.

So since they just updated them, please show us stuckey's advanced stats

And please compare them to BG
lol

You're ridiculous. Stuckey has NEVER played this bad. Its obviously just a slump.

And no, I'm not going to compare Stuckeys 8 game slump to Ben Gordons 5 games. That doesn't make any sense.

[shyfly24]

You're ridiculous. Stuckey has NEVER played this bad. Its obviously just a slump.

And no, I'm not going to compare Stuckeys 8 game slump to Ben Gordons 5 games. That doesn't make any sense.

Oh but you can compare Nick Youngs 14 TOTAL min playoff advanced stats to stuckey's 4 game one?
LOLLL

Proves my point you will only show us stats that will make stuckey look good. DECEIVING!

[markbutter]

Dude stop! What your doing is ignorant. Those numbers hasn't happened, so its a mute point. Your just assuming this is what his numbers are gonna be IF he played those minutes. Not even considering the other factors that are involved. My example is using the exact same concept that your using, it has nothing w/ do w/ percentages.

Dude BG shot 40%+ from 3 EVERY year he has been in the league except that very one year. He is coming from a team w/ a good point guard in Rose to all of a sudden playing w/ stuckey. Don't you think that would be a surprise to him and he would have to adjust his game cause of it?

You wanna know why we can't hold him to the same standards, cause I provide facts, you provide assumptions. Why isn't stuckey the point guard any more if he made Gordon shoot 40%? No he is not cause he failed at that position. Why did Sheed Prince Hamilton and everyone else shoot such a great % and then all of a sudden shot horrible RIGHT WHEN STUCKEY TOOK OVER? Answer it!

So what your asking is why didn't we go to teh finals every year and win? Are you serious? Not even the lakers or Spurs can do that. The fact Chauncy won a championship w/o a superstar proves how great he is. Our team was relevant and made it to the conf finals every year but right when stuckey took over we fell so fast that everyone just gave up on him

Ah: Rose was drafted in 2008. We signed BG in 2009, so he played one year with him and except for his rookie year, shot his lowest 3 point %. I do admit he tied his best FG% overall though. But making assumptions, isn't that why we signed him?

Extrapolate: it's actually called percentages and works best in baseball (i.e., moneyball) because there is such a large data population to use as a sample. If 7 years of BG's career is not a good data population to extrapolate from, what number of years are? When you decide to either sign, resign, trade for or cut loose a guy, isn't that really what you're doing? Taking his performance to date and making assumptions about what he will do going forward? And in your opinion 7 years of data isn't enough to extrapolate for BG? I will bet his career averages going forward are within 10% of his career averages the last 7 years.

In 2002 CB signed with the pistons (BEFORE he had even won a chip) and at that point, really hadn't done anything other than play for 3 other teams. Yes, this does go against my point, but CB is the exception to the rule. Why the drum beat for Drummond? Aren't you making assumptions based on a much smaller sample size than I used for BG to "project" what Drummond will do?

Aren't you "projecting" or "making assumptions" (using your term), what we would have done in 2008/2009 using CB stats the previous 6 years. So it's OK to use 6 years of stats for CB to make projections for the 2008-09+ seasons, but not 7 years of BG stats to make BG projections? Got it.

Next, you're right, I'm wrong. But let's look at another point, and that is: At what point do you start to make changes. Hindsight is 20/20 and I admit Stuck hasn't become the player that I thought he'd be. But you're Joe D and sitting in your office in the fall of 2008. For the last 3 years you haven't made the finals with the same starting 5. It doesn't look like your starting 5 has much more ceiling (if any) because of age and other teams improvement. You're up against the cap. Denver isn't trading Melo.

Our starting 5 in 2008 in age
Ben & Sheed: 34
Rip 30
CB 32
Tay 28

4 of our starting 5 are on the wrong side of 30. 2 of them, considerably.

So, do you roll with your current starting 5?

Why would you believe 2009 would end any different than 2006, 2007 or 2008 with CB still here?

Or do you take the best guy on your bench, make him a starter and keep the other 4 intact. You get back an expiring contract that will free up ~18M for the next summer, in which you hope to sign some new blood. I agree and am disappointed that Stuck isn't better than he is now. I agree that BG/CV were paid too much and it duplicated a position. But looking at it in the fall of 2008, what would you do to improve.

The main point is, at what time do you decide to start making changes?

[markbutter]

Don't even waste your time, mark. A few of us had this same conversation with Shyfly.



He just said that a few minutes ago, thats all you need to know when you're debating with shyfly about Stuckey. Stuck could save a kid from a burning building and Shyfly would bash him for it.

Yeah, but that's what makes it FUN

[shyfly24]

Unreal dude, your still doing it. Okay lets take old *** sheeds per 36 min, look how sick those would look, but will it happen? OBV not! Stop!

Why are you talking about Drummond, where in this thread did I say anything about him?

And dude my goodness, your projecting what a players stats would be IF he played 36 min. I'm saying our team would not have sucked the we have if we never traded chauncy in 2009. Don't you think if we kept the same crew in 2009 we would've fared better that year? Instead of being a laughing stock?

I'm not saying don't make changes, I don't even know where this came from, but wtf ... you don't make bone headed moves like trading chauncy for A.I. when you just signed Hamilton to an extension and had stuckey who has done nothing to show that he can run the point
And use that money on CV and Gordon. If it didn't work w/ Iverson and Hamtilon why would it work w/ Gordon and Hamlton? Unreal

[markbutter]

Unreal dude, your still doing it. Okay lets take old *** sheeds per 36 min, look how sick those would look, but will it happen? OBV not! Stop!

Why are you talking about Drummond, where in this thread did I say anything about him?

And dude my goodness, your projecting what a players stats would be IF he played 36 min. I'm saying our team would not have sucked the we have if we never traded chauncy in 2009. Don't you think if we kept the same crew in 2009 we would've fared better that year? Instead of being a laughing stock?

I'm not saying don't make changes, I don't even know where this came from, but wtf ... you don't make bone headed moves like trading chauncy for A.I. when you just signed Hamilton to an extension and had stuckey who has done nothing to show that he can run the point
And use that money on CV and Gordon. If it didn't work w/ Iverson and Hamtilon why would it work w/ Gordon and Hamlton? Unreal

I agree, the team would not have sucked had we not traded CB. But at what point do you start to make changes? Do you keep CB just to "not" suck, but still making no improvement or getting closer towards winning a chip?

OK, we don't trade CB. We don't win the chip in 2009. We don't win it in 2010. So where are we then? Not sucking but not winning chips. We missed the lottery in 2009 ( I think) and barely made the playoffs. But we sucked the next two years and got Moose, Knight. With CB, we're chugging along with a 3-6 seed, a taste of playoffs but knocked out in the second round probably. . . but hey, we don't suck.

You don't play not to suck. You play to win chips. And if you're not moving towards that goal or at least making the best effort to that goal, then you're falling farther away from that goal. (Again, hindsight is 20/20).

AI/Rip vs. BG/Rip -- you just state that if it didn't work with AI/Rip, why would it work with BG/Rip? And you're using 1 year of AI/Rip vs. the assumption of BG/Rip. . .and yet you bash me using 7 years of BG stats to make an assumption of his future play. aiiwiight.

The bone-headed move, OK. but what moves would YOU have done. Again, going by the end of 2006-2008, we hadn't made the finals and 4 of our starters are on the wrong side of 30. What would YOU do if that deal presented itself? We tried for months for Melo, so that didn't happen. It was a move knowing there would be a short term loss for long term gain, hopefully.

There wasn't much else to do to free up some money and knowing that our core was getting old.

As for signing Rip, bad move. And Rip got upset when we signed BG and CB got traded.

"It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business." Micheal Corleone

[shyfly24]

I agree, the team would not have sucked had we not traded CB. But at what point do you start to make changes? Do you keep CB just to "not" suck, but still making no improvement or getting closer towards winning a chip?

OK, we don't trade CB. We don't win the chip in 2009. We don't win it in 2010. So where are we then? Not sucking but not winning chips. We missed the lottery in 2009 ( I think) and barely made the playoffs. But we sucked the next two years and got Moose, Knight. With CB, we're chugging along with a 3-6 seed, a taste of playoffs but knocked out in the second round probably. . . but hey, we don't suck.

You don't play not to suck. You play to win chips. And if you're not moving towards that goal or at least making the best effort to that goal, then you're falling farther away from that goal. (Again, hindsight is 20/20).

AI/Rip vs. BG/Rip -- you just state that if it didn't work with AI/Rip, why would it work with BG/Rip? And you're using 1 year of AI/Rip vs. the assumption of BG/Rip. . .and yet you bash me using 7 years of BG stats to make an assumption of his future play. aiiwiight.

The bone-headed move, OK. but what moves would YOU have done. Again, going by the end of 2006-2008, we hadn't made the finals and 4 of our starters are on the wrong side of 30. What would YOU do if that deal presented itself? We tried for months for Melo, so that didn't happen. It was a move knowing there would be a short term loss for long term gain, hopefully.

There wasn't much else to do to free up some money and knowing that our core was getting old.

As for signing Rip, bad move. And Rip got upset when we signed BG and CB got traded.

"It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business." Micheal Corleone

Did I say not to make changes? Where did you see me ever saying to not make changes. And your making it seem like the only change that can be made is by trading CB and not even mentioning the other players. Why would you trade away the heart of the team? The player that makes everything run smoothly. Why couldn't you have traded Hamilton away for someone? Prince? I mean really?

Joe D is the idiot that kept the exact same team for how long now thinking it would somehow be better then the year before even after getting older.

I would've rather have gone into rebuilding mode w/ Chauncy on our team. Even CP said that Billups is the best guard he has ever played w/ even at CB's age.

And DUDE SHUT UP! My statements are facts! Yours are assumptions. You guessing BG stats per 36 min is an assumption. Me saying AI and Hamilton or Gordon or Hamilton is not gonna work are FACTS. It happened, I didn't assume it.

[GuySir]

Stuck could save a kid from a burning building and Shyfly would bash him for it.

Stuckey probably set the building on fire in the first place. Just trying to set up a situation where he can be a hero and everyone will love him, just to cheer up his psyche and he'll play better. Unfortunately he stubbed his toe while saving the kid and is out 1-2 months.

[Gram]

Stuckey probably set the building on fire in the first place. Just trying to set up a situation where he can be a hero and everyone will love him, just to cheer up his psyche and he'll play better. Unfortunately he stubbed his toe while saving the kid and is out 1-2 months.

[shyfly24]

lmao