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  1. #91
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    Omar and co. did try to improve the team after 2006, but the moves just did not worked out and after 08 many of the bigger moves made ended up being horrible.

    Wilpon also spend, was it because his Maddoff scheme was allowing him to spend more since he was getting a boom from that? probably.

    The farm could of and should of been better had the GM's be allowed to over slot and spend more on the draft during the decade. Abiding by the commissioners slotting rules hurt this franchise.

    Trading away guys like Bell, Ring, Owens and Lidstrom were not bad moves when they were made, they also got guys like Burgos, Vargas and Bostick in return in some trades. Yeah Burgos turned out to be a murderer, Bostick never got s shot and Vargas has had a decent career after he was traded to Seattle, but those were minor moves. Nobody in their right mind thought that Heath Bell who sucked as Met would turn into an all star closer.

    I do semi blame Minaya for not making in season moves as he had other assets, but in 2008 when he had a chance to get a reliever the guys that teams wanted were Niese and Martinez and he did not mortgage the future in those instances for better or worst.

    The thing now is that the Wilpons have put their tail between their legs and are spending like the Pirates did for many years while they try to recuperate the monies lost over the last couple of seasons. This led to them losing a franchise player and maybe another one.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by metsbulls1025 View Post
    Absolutely wrong? Didn't the Phillies spend and have great farm systems? How do they look now after all their trades?
    They traded a large amount of their quality prospects, we never did that. Their farm system is still pretty decent though. And they are still much better than we are and they still are going to spend money.

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    Why retract the truth?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by metsbulls1025 View Post
    Absolutely wrong? Didn't the Phillies spend and have great farm systems? How do they look now after all their trades?
    You forget to mention all the success they had over 5-6 years...

    I'd say the Phillies made out like bandits, shame the Mets didn't have owners with the will or desire to put our team OTT after '06...

  5. #95
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    Really i think it's sad we overlook how limited we have been prospect wise the last 10 years.

    It's amazing teams like St Louis, Tampa, Texas, etc etc were able to churn out prospect after prospect and we have 2 legitimately hyped guys (Wheeler and Harvey, Flores too if they can find him a position) since Wright and Reyes.

    Tejada, Murphy, and Ike are still on the fence in that regard too.

    This team really has no excuses in that regard, losing first round picks through major free agents or not. (The Yankees still produce quality specs whether they keep them or trade them)

    Why not bring in better scouting or better draft personnel?

    That's one major fault in an organization that has much too many faults to count.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-23-2012 at 03:24 PM.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Really i think it's sad we overlook how limited we have been prospect wise the last 10 years.

    It's amazing teams like St Louis, Tampa, Texas, etc etc were able to churn out prospect after prospect and we have 2 legitimately hyped guys (Wheeler and Harvey, Flores too if they can find him a position) since Wright and Reyes.

    Tejada, Murphy, and Ike are still on the fence in that regard too.

    This team really has no excuses in that regard, losing first round picks through major free agents or not. (The Yankees still produce quality specs whether they keep them or trade them)

    Why not bring in better scouting or better draft personnel?

    That's one major fault in an organization that has much too many faults to count.

    The Mets are a trash org from top to bottom, been that way for nearly 30 years. That's why we lose. When we start getting anywhere, we ruin it, I say WE ruin it, we know who ruins it.

    The Coupons don't want a winner, they want to own a baseball team. They want people they 'like' working for them, they want nice clean cut players playing for them.

    Look at the craphole Fredo built, now tell me a guy that wants the Mets to win the WS built that.

    He doesn't. End of.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Really i think it's sad we overlook how limited we have been prospect wise the last 10 years.

    It's amazing teams like St Louis, Tampa, Texas, etc etc were able to churn out prospect after prospect and we have 2 legitimately hyped guys (Wheeler and Harvey, Flores too if they can find him a position) since Wright and Reyes.

    Tejada, Murphy, and Ike are still on the fence in that regard too.

    This team really has no excuses in that regard, losing first round picks through major free agents or not. (The Yankees still produce quality specs whether they keep them or trade them)

    Why not bring in better scouting or better draft personnel?

    That's one major fault in an organization that has much too many faults to count.
    Did they?

    I think many of the Yankees guys were severely over hyped and in this century have really only developed 1 star and that is Cano. Do not get me wrong they have developed some nice players and a quite a few solid pen arms, but aside from Cano the next 2 best position players they have developed are Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner. Jesus Montero for years got over hyped because he was a catcher, but the dude is a DH and he will have to mash to lie up to the hype and he may still do that, but in that park it will be tough.

    Pitching wise guys like Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain are no better than a Mike Pelfrey or Jon Niese. Look at their top 3 pitching prospects the last few years in the killer B's Betances, Banuelos and Brackman and one is no longer with them, the other 2 have serious issues and honestly are not better than a guy like Familia, but yet those guys got so much more hype than a guy like Familia.

    The Yankees prospects this century have live on the shoulders of the guys the produced in the 90's imo.

    Do not get me wrong the Mets have had a share of over hyped guys like Martinez and Milledge, but the Yanks have really not done much better than the Mets this century churning out quality mlb players.

    The one place where the Yankees do a excellent job is in developing pen arms, there are many guys in their team and around the league that came up in that organization.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Did they?

    I think many of the Yankees guys were severely over hyped and in this century have really only developed 1 star and that is Cano. Do not get me wrong they have developed some nice players and a quite a few solid pen arms, but aside from Cano the next 2 best position players they have developed are Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner. Jesus Montero for years got over hyped because he was a catcher, but the dude is a DH and he will have to mash to lie up to the hype and he may still do that, but in that park it will be tough.

    Pitching wise guys like Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain are no better than a Mike Pelfrey or Jon Niese. Look at their top 3 pitching prospects the last few years in the killer B's Betances, Banuelos and Brackman and one is no longer with them, the other 2 have serious issues and honestly are not better than a guy like Familia, but yet those guys got so much more hype than a guy like Familia.

    The Yankees prospects this century have live on the shoulders of the guys the produced in the 90's imo.

    Do not get me wrong the Mets have had a share of over hyped guys like Martinez and Milledge, but the Yanks have really not done much better than the Mets this century churning out quality mlb players.

    The one place where the Yankees do a excellent job is in developing pen arms, there are many guys in their team and around the league that came up in that organization.
    Fair enough.

    And i don't have many complaints in the pitching department with guys like Montero, Tapia, Mateo, Fulmer, etc etc coming. I think that will certainly be the Met's best playing cards going forward (either in regards to trades or developing their own SP/RP)

    But look at some of the positional guys the Yankees have been currently developing.

    Tyler Austin, Mason Williams, Gary Sanchez..

    I know they are all still early in their development but that's more positional prospects with higher ceilings than the Mets have currently.

    I'd like to believe Wilmer Flores can be great but they have to find a position for him first and as for Nimmo he is still a ways away.

    I was using the Yankees as more of an example that teams with later 1st round picks can still produce quality talent. Of course that talent becomes more difficult to develop when you aren't getting the cream of the crop in draft position but obviously better scouting certainly leads to better selections. And certain teams make it a habit of finding significant help in later rounds as well (albeit certainly other teams besides the Yankees)

    I just don't understand how other teams with major market payrolls seem to have distinctly better farm systems than the Mets. Especially with all the resources the team once had and their reinvestment into the farm system as of late.

    No significant OF prospects coming (Nimmo now but how many years away)?

    No bullpen prospects for how many years (As Edgin, Familia, and Mejia are still unknowns)?

    Wright, Reyes, and Ike may end up being the 3 guys the Mets have had that provided meaningful impact positionally in the last 15 years.

    If they need better draft personnel go pluck someone from St. Louis, Cincinnati, Tampa, or Texas. Teams that have better draft histories than the Mets and also have a knack for finding later round guys that have significant major league impacts.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-24-2012 at 01:58 PM.

  9. #99
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    Is Mason Williams better that a Cesar Puello though? They are the same age, but again a guy like Puello gets some love, but the Yankee guy gets a lot of love.

    Tyler Austin I really like and am hoping Nimmo could be a guy we can compare to him in a few years.

    Gary Sanchez obviously could be a stud specially if he stays a catcher and the Mets have no guy to compare to him.

    But the Mets do have Flores and he will hit either for the Mets or for some other team.

    Pitching wise the Mets are far deeper and with Harvey and Wheeler they could have 2 guys who are top of the rotation guys and as you mention they have a ton of other arms after that, but yeah the Yanks have some solid arms as well, but I take the Mets arms ahead of them.


    As for the teams you mention well yeah, those teams have become the ideal organizations as far as drafting, signing IFA and developing talent goes.

    ...but one other think I like to mention is while the Met have done extremely well in the IFA market, they never spend big on guys and the Yanks and Rangers do. Look at how much the Rangers spend on 2 guys last year, it was something like 10 million. The Yanks spend big on Sanchez and Montero, the Reds spend big on Chapman too.

    Hopefully now the Mets spend big as well and Rosario was the first of many guys like him to come.

    ...but the Mets still need to delve into the Cuban market and spend on guys like Chapman, Puig and Cespedes.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Fair enough.

    And i don't have many complaints in the pitching department with guys like Montero, Tapia, Mateo, Fulmer, etc etc coming. I think that will certainly be the Met's best playing cards going forward (either in regards to trades or developing their own SP/RP)

    But look at some of the positional guys the Yankees have been currently developing.

    Tyler Austin, Mason Williams, Gary Sanchez..

    I know they are all still early in their development but that's more positional prospects with higher ceilings than the Mets have currently.

    I'd like to believe Wilmer Flores can be great but they have to find a position for him first and as for Nimmo he is still a ways away.

    I was using the Yankees as more of an example that teams with later 1st round picks can still produce quality talent. Of course that talent becomes more difficult to develop when you aren't getting the cream of the crop in draft position but obviously better scouting certainly leads to better selections. And certain teams make it a habit of finding significant help in later rounds (albeit certainly other teams besides the Yankees)

    I just don't understand how other teams with major market payrolls seem to have distinctly better farm systems than the Mets. Especially with all the resources the team once had and their reinvestment into the farm system as of late.

    No significant OF prospects coming (Nimmo now but how many years away)?

    No bullpen prospects for how many years (As Edgin, Familia, and Mejia are still unknowns)?

    Wright, Reyes, and Ike may end up being the 3 guys the Mets have had that provided meaningful impact positionally in the last 15 years.

    If they need better draft personnel go pluck someone from St. Louis, Cincinnati, Tampa, or Texas. Teams that have better draft histories than the Mets and also have a knack for finding later round guys that have significant impacts.

    Here's an article from 2009 that discusses the problem. The Wilpons have always refused to spend, even when they had the most money in the National League.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sp...ll/20mets.html

    The Mets Finished Last in 2009 Draft Spending

    By BEN SHPIGEL
    Published: November 19, 2009

    How much money the Mets intend to lavish on free agents to fill their many needs is unclear. What is clear is that the Mets, during a dreadful season and increased criticism of their minor league system, spent less money on the 2009 draft than any other team in baseball, according to figures compiled by Baseball America.

    Omar Minaya said the Mets were committed to spending for top amateur talent.

    The Mets divvied $3,134,300 among their 35 signed picks, more than 50 percent less than their 2008 outlay, when they had two first-round selections and a first-round supplemental pick. By contrast, the average for all 30 teams was a shade more than $6 million. Without a pick until the second round, No. 72 over all, the Mets’ spending was destined to decrease. But their 2009 strategy resembled that of a small-market club that sometimes bypasses talented players in earlier rounds because it does not want to spend more on them than players available deeper in the draft.

    The Philadelphia Phillies, who ranked 29th in 2009 spending, were the only other team not to have a first-round pick or a supplemental pick, which comes between the first and second rounds. Traditionally, their approach has been comparable to the Mets’, though the Phillies are not as rigid in adhering to baseball’s recommendations on how much to spend in various rounds of the draft. They do not have the Mets’ resources, either.

    The Mets used $1,864,300 on the first 10 rounds of the 2009 draft, less than any other team, and failed to sign their fifth- and sixth-round selections, each a hard-throwing right-handed pitcher.

    “With a brand-new ballpark and a television network, the Mets’ revenues are probably among the top five clubs in baseball,” said Jim Callis, the executive editor of Baseball America and an expert on player development. “After spending about $6.5 million when they had extra picks last year, do I think they could have found the money this year? Yeah, I think they could have. It just comes down to the willingness to spend.”

    General Manager Omar Minaya defended the Mets’ 2009 strategy, saying that not having a first-round pick diminished their spending and that they were committed to paying for top amateur talent. He added that the Mets tried hard to sign their fifth-round pick, Damien Magnifico of Mesquite, Tex., and their sixth-round choice, David Buchanan of Chipola Junior College in Florida, but that the players rejected what he called fair offers.

    “We want to pay for the player whatever we feel the player is worth, and we do the best we can to sign the player,” he said.

    The Mets are known for their conservative approach to the draft, particularly since signing Mike Pelfrey, their first-round choice in 2005, for $5.3 million with a $3.5 million bonus. They almost never offer bonuses that exceed the slotting guidelines recommended by the commissioner’s office. They signed their top pick in 2009, Steven Matz, for $895,000, about $388,000 more than what was suggested. But that extra money most likely would have gone to a first-round pick, anyway, so the Mets were not really acting as boldly as they seemed to. Callis said the Mets, the Chicago White Sox and the Houston Astros were the three teams that consistently did not go over the slotting guidelines.

    “They may be being good citizens, but it’s not good for the club,” Callis said.

    A farm system should perform two functions: furnish the parent club with cheap talent and churn out prospects that can be used in trades. That is how the Mets were able to acquire Johan Santana from Minnesota before the 2008 season, though the Twins were more resigned to dealing Santana than they were overwhelmed by the Mets’ offer. None of the four prospects Minnesota received from the Mets has flourished.

    Still, that trade wiped out much of the Mets’ upper-tier depth in the minors, and they have been slow to replenish it.

    The Yankees lavished $423.5 million on C. C. Sabathia, A. J. Burnett and Mark Teixeira last off-season, but they have also devoted more resources to the draft and the minor leagues. Now they routinely press their financial advantage in the draft, spreading $7,564,500 (ninth most) among their 27 signed picks in 2009, including about $2.2 million on their first-round pick and about $1.25 million on their second-round pick. Even after paying those above-slot bonuses, the Yankees still spent almost $1 million more on the rest of their 25 selections than the Mets did with all 35 of theirs, despite the teams having comparable picks.

    “Hardly any team has spent less than the Mets the last two years,” Callis said. “On the other hand, the team that has spent the most money is the Pittsburgh Pirates, who hardly have the revenue stream that the Mets do. They recognize that they can’t compete for free agents, but they can compete for amateurs.”

    Minaya said the Mets would spend more in the 2010 draft, when they have the No. 7 pick over all. The Mets relinquished their first-round pick last year after signing Francisco Rodriguez, a Type A free agent. But even if they sign another Type A free agent, like Bengie Molina or Matt Holliday, their pick will be protected because they finished so poorly last season.

    “I don’t like picking early like this,” Minaya said. “I’d much rather be picking late.”


  11. #101
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    More holes in the Coupons 'spending big' myth.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    The Mets are a trash org from top to bottom, been that way for nearly 30 years.


    Umm.. how long have you been watching the Mets? I ask because you never post in a game thread. Like...ever.

    We were in the World Series 12 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by NYG+Braves
    Im a Braves fan and im scared to face Harvey way more then Strasburgh. Lol strasburgh dont scare me at all compared to Harvey.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    As for the teams you mention well yeah, those teams have become the ideal organizations as far as drafting, signing IFA and developing talent goes.

    ...but one other think I like to mention is while the Met have done extremely well in the IFA market, they never spend big on guys and the Yanks and Rangers do. Look at how much the Rangers spend on 2 guys last year, it was something like 10 million. The Yanks spend big on Sanchez and Montero, the Reds spend big on Chapman too.

    Hopefully now the Mets spend big as well and Rosario was the first of many guys like him to come.

    ...but the Mets still need to delve into the Cuban market and spend on guys like Chapman, Puig and Cespedes.
    Yep.

    If they are concerned with adding significant payroll in FA and they are more interested in developing young controllable talent then they certainly should into being more aggressive in the IFA market and finding better draft personnel to improve their system positionally.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-24-2012 at 07:41 AM.

  14. 11-24-2012, 08:36 AM
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  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    Here's an article from 2009 that discusses the problem. The Wilpons have always refused to spend, even when they had the most money in the National League.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sp...ll/20mets.html

    The Mets Finished Last in 2009 Draft Spending

    By BEN SHPIGEL
    Published: November 19, 2009

    How much money the Mets intend to lavish on free agents to fill their many needs is unclear. What is clear is that the Mets, during a dreadful season and increased criticism of their minor league system, spent less money on the 2009 draft than any other team in baseball, according to figures compiled by Baseball America.

    Omar Minaya said the Mets were committed to spending for top amateur talent.

    The Mets divvied $3,134,300 among their 35 signed picks, more than 50 percent less than their 2008 outlay, when they had two first-round selections and a first-round supplemental pick. By contrast, the average for all 30 teams was a shade more than $6 million. Without a pick until the second round, No. 72 over all, the Mets’ spending was destined to decrease. But their 2009 strategy resembled that of a small-market club that sometimes bypasses talented players in earlier rounds because it does not want to spend more on them than players available deeper in the draft.

    The Philadelphia Phillies, who ranked 29th in 2009 spending, were the only other team not to have a first-round pick or a supplemental pick, which comes between the first and second rounds. Traditionally, their approach has been comparable to the Mets’, though the Phillies are not as rigid in adhering to baseball’s recommendations on how much to spend in various rounds of the draft. They do not have the Mets’ resources, either.

    The Mets used $1,864,300 on the first 10 rounds of the 2009 draft, less than any other team, and failed to sign their fifth- and sixth-round selections, each a hard-throwing right-handed pitcher.

    “With a brand-new ballpark and a television network, the Mets’ revenues are probably among the top five clubs in baseball,” said Jim Callis, the executive editor of Baseball America and an expert on player development. “After spending about $6.5 million when they had extra picks last year, do I think they could have found the money this year? Yeah, I think they could have. It just comes down to the willingness to spend.”

    General Manager Omar Minaya defended the Mets’ 2009 strategy, saying that not having a first-round pick diminished their spending and that they were committed to paying for top amateur talent. He added that the Mets tried hard to sign their fifth-round pick, Damien Magnifico of Mesquite, Tex., and their sixth-round choice, David Buchanan of Chipola Junior College in Florida, but that the players rejected what he called fair offers.

    “We want to pay for the player whatever we feel the player is worth, and we do the best we can to sign the player,” he said.

    The Mets are known for their conservative approach to the draft, particularly since signing Mike Pelfrey, their first-round choice in 2005, for $5.3 million with a $3.5 million bonus. They almost never offer bonuses that exceed the slotting guidelines recommended by the commissioner’s office. They signed their top pick in 2009, Steven Matz, for $895,000, about $388,000 more than what was suggested. But that extra money most likely would have gone to a first-round pick, anyway, so the Mets were not really acting as boldly as they seemed to. Callis said the Mets, the Chicago White Sox and the Houston Astros were the three teams that consistently did not go over the slotting guidelines.

    “They may be being good citizens, but it’s not good for the club,” Callis said.

    A farm system should perform two functions: furnish the parent club with cheap talent and churn out prospects that can be used in trades. That is how the Mets were able to acquire Johan Santana from Minnesota before the 2008 season, though the Twins were more resigned to dealing Santana than they were overwhelmed by the Mets’ offer. None of the four prospects Minnesota received from the Mets has flourished.

    Still, that trade wiped out much of the Mets’ upper-tier depth in the minors, and they have been slow to replenish it.

    The Yankees lavished $423.5 million on C. C. Sabathia, A. J. Burnett and Mark Teixeira last off-season, but they have also devoted more resources to the draft and the minor leagues. Now they routinely press their financial advantage in the draft, spreading $7,564,500 (ninth most) among their 27 signed picks in 2009, including about $2.2 million on their first-round pick and about $1.25 million on their second-round pick. Even after paying those above-slot bonuses, the Yankees still spent almost $1 million more on the rest of their 25 selections than the Mets did with all 35 of theirs, despite the teams having comparable picks.

    “Hardly any team has spent less than the Mets the last two years,” Callis said. “On the other hand, the team that has spent the most money is the Pittsburgh Pirates, who hardly have the revenue stream that the Mets do. They recognize that they can’t compete for free agents, but they can compete for amateurs.”

    Minaya said the Mets would spend more in the 2010 draft, when they have the No. 7 pick over all. The Mets relinquished their first-round pick last year after signing Francisco Rodriguez, a Type A free agent. But even if they sign another Type A free agent, like Bengie Molina or Matt Holliday, their pick will be protected because they finished so poorly last season.

    “I don’t like picking early like this,” Minaya said. “I’d much rather be picking late.”

    The Madoff crash hit in late 2008 costing the team a significant revenue stream. It's really not surprising they cut spending in subsequent drafts. I'd be curious to know how their draft spends compared in prior years using an apples-to-apples metric.
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  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The Madoff crash hit in late 2008 costing the team a significant revenue stream. It's really not surprising they cut spending in subsequent drafts. I'd be curious to know how their draft spends compared in prior years using an apples-to-apples metric.
    The article discusses prior drafts. The Wilpons were always cheap. Reread this paragraph.


    The Mets are known for their conservative approach to the draft, particularly since signing Mike Pelfrey, their first-round choice in 2005, for $5.3 million with a $3.5 million bonus. They almost never offer bonuses that exceed the slotting guidelines recommended by the commissioner’s office. They signed their top pick in 2009, Steven Matz, for $895,000, about $388,000 more than what was suggested. But that extra money most likely would have gone to a first-round pick, anyway, so the Mets were not really acting as boldly as they seemed to. Callis said the Mets, the Chicago White Sox and the Houston Astros were the three teams that consistently did not go over the slotting guidelines.


    They probably only went over slot for Pelfrey because they thought he was almost MLB ready. As such the package they paid him was a cheap contract for a MLB pitcher. Because they rushed him through the minors and made him into a one pitch pitcher, they ruined him.

    The Wilpons penny pinching goes back way before Ponzi scheme #2 collapsed.

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