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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunbummin View Post
    That is absolutely rediculous. You don't think you might be just a little bit biased, do you? You sound like a petulent baby whose parents are taking away his candy. Ooooh, if my candy wasn't so good, you'd let me keep it. You just want it because you're selfish and you want it for yourselves. Boo hoo! Boo hoo!

    This is a business. If they can get value for Gee, a decent player but no star, they will trade him in a heartbeat. And if they can't get elite prospects for Dickey and he is willing to sign an affordable extension, they'll keep him. But don't whine about the fact that they may trade him only because he won the C.Y. or he is too good and they don't really want to win. They may trade him because the return they can get will result in a better long term outcome than keeping him.
    Speaking of petulant children (who apparently can't spell "ridiculous" or "petulant")...

    If they Wilpons trade Dickey, it will be because their horrible investment decisions have left them broke to the point where they can't field the best possible team. Even Buster Olney, who has probably never said an assertive word in his life, has thrown down the gauntlet: Sign Dickey or sell the team.

    And yeah, we're a little biased...toward really good players. R.A. Dickey is one of the best pitchers in baseball, and we'd all like him to stay. Sarcastically opining that he'll get traded now that he's become a great pitcher is perfectly understandable, considering that the last Met to receive any sort of award or accolade--Jose Reyes--is now a twice removed ex-Met.

    But by all means, defend the organization against your fellow fans. After all, they've done so much for you. All these great winning seasons, all the money invested in the team the last few years, the hiring of Moneyball's Grandfather for the purposes of filling our roster with great players at market value--OH WAIT A SECOND...


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    Speaking of petulant children (who apparently can't spell "ridiculous" or "petulant")...

    If they Wilpons trade Dickey, it will be because their horrible investment decisions have left them broke to the point where they can't field the best possible team. Even Buster Olney, who has probably never said an assertive word in his life, has thrown down the gauntlet: Sign Dickey or sell the team.

    And yeah, we're a little biased...toward really good players. R.A. Dickey is one of the best pitchers in baseball, and we'd all like him to stay. Sarcastically opining that he'll get traded now that he's become a great pitcher is perfectly understandable, considering that the last Met to receive any sort of award or accolade--Jose Reyes--is now a twice removed ex-Met.

    But by all means, defend the organization against your fellow fans. After all, they've done so much for you. All these great winning seasons, all the money invested in the team the last few years, the hiring of Moneyball's Grandfather for the purposes of filling our roster with great players at market value--OH WAIT A SECOND...

    Well done sir.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  3. #33
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    I'd give him no more than 3 years. If he wants more, I would trade him.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    I'd give him no more than 3 years. If he wants more, I would trade him.
    So you'd rather not have him for three so long as it means not having him for a fourth? I don't get that logic.

    Sure, it would be ideal if he signed for three years, but if it takes four to get the job done, then do it. I don't see the point of setting hard and fast if you're only a year apart.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    So you'd rather not have him for three so long as it means not having him for a fourth? I don't get that logic.

    Sure, it would be ideal if he signed for three years, but if it takes four to get the job done, then do it. I don't see the point of setting hard and fast if you're only a year apart.
    Baseball is unpredictable. What if he regresses somehow? As much as we want to think Dickey is going to be a guarentee, no one knows for sure.

    4 years is a big commitment to make to a 38 years old pitcher regardless of whether or not they throw a knuckleball. Other body parts can get injured and will take longer to heal. I'd rather give him 2/30 than 4/50.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    Speaking of petulant children (who apparently can't spell "ridiculous" or "petulant")...

    If they Wilpons trade Dickey, it will be because their horrible investment decisions have left them broke to the point where they can't field the best possible team. Even Buster Olney, who has probably never said an assertive word in his life, has thrown down the gauntlet: Sign Dickey or sell the team.
    Too many people seem to believe this.

    I think more likely, they are loaded, they have no financial difficulties at all at this point.

    And they'll go ahead and trade Dickey anyway.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    Baseball is unpredictable. What if he regresses somehow? As much as we want to think Dickey is going to be a guarentee, no one knows for sure.

    4 years is a big commitment to make to a 38 years old pitcher regardless of whether or not they throw a knuckleball. Other body parts can get injured and will take longer to heal. I'd rather give him 2/30 than 4/50.
    To answer the questions regarding his health and regression, let me say this: First, he's 38, not 68. He's arguably the best athlete on the team behind David Wright, and has given no one any reason to suspect he's about to break down. People are so keen to invoke the great knucklers of the past as reason to assume he'll be around a while, but I'd rather invoke guys like Steve Nash and Kurt Thomas, who are currently proving that the modern athlete's shelf life is much longer than it once was.

    As for regressing, well, I'd just say that he could regress quite a ways before he's no longer a viable starting pitcher. Even in his first two years here, where he'd have the occasional "knuckleballer start" and either walk everyone or get shelled, he really has shown himself to be a top-flight talent and reliable pitcher. I have no doubt that his 2013 will be somewhat less spectacular than his 2012, but to act as if we don't know what we'll get from Dickey from year to year is no longer a valid claim.

    And while I agree that four years is a long time for a 38-year-old, I just don't see how the difference between three and four years should be a dealbreaker.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    To answer the questions regarding his health and regression, let me say this: First, he's 38, not 68. He's arguably the best athlete on the team behind David Wright, and has given no one any reason to suspect he's about to break down. People are so keen to invoke the great knucklers of the past as reason to assume he'll be around a while, but I'd rather invoke guys like Steve Nash and Kurt Thomas, who are currently proving that the modern athlete's shelf life is much longer than it once was.

    As for regressing, well, I'd just say that he could regress quite a ways before he's no longer a viable starting pitcher. Even in his first two years here, where he'd have the occasional "knuckleballer start" and either walk everyone or get shelled, he really has shown himself to be a top-flight talent and reliable pitcher. I have no doubt that his 2013 will be somewhat less spectacular than his 2012, but to act as if we don't know what we'll get from Dickey from year to year is no longer a valid claim.

    And while I agree that four years is a long time for a 38-year-old, I just don't see how the difference between three and four years should be a dealbreaker.
    I don't know what your definition of athletic is, but Dickey is not the 2nd best athlete on the Mets to me. He's had two injuries the past two seasons, and even though he was able to pitch through it, it does cause some reason for concern. He had the abdominal injury and plantar fascia issue.

    We've never seen a knuckleballer like Dickey, so comparing him to past knuckleballers doesn't really make much sense. He could fall off just as quickly as he rose to fame with that unpredictable pitch. I wouldn't bet on that happening, but that doubt has to factor in the amount years you give the guy.

    And I don't think we are one or two players away from being legit contenders, we need to build a new more talented younger core with Wright's veteran leadership leading the way. I don't know how we will acquire those offensive pieces without spending a ton of money without making deals.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    I don't know what your definition of athletic is, but Dickey is not the 2nd best athlete on the Mets to me. He's had two injuries the past two seasons, and even though he was able to pitch through it, it does cause some reason for concern. He had the abdominal injury and plantar fascia issue.
    If you don't think Dickey is the second-best athlete on the team, I would offer that you're the one who should clarify. He routinely makes athletic plays in the field, runs in marathons and climbs mountains. What exactly is unathletic about him?

    And he's pitched (and pitched well) through the two injuries he's had in three seasons, so again I have to ask where you get the idea that he's anywhere near breaking down.

    We've never seen a knuckleballer like Dickey, so comparing him to past knuckleballers doesn't really make much sense.
    Which is exactly why I didn't compare him to other knucklers. I compared him to a pair of NBA players.

    He could fall off just as quickly as he rose to fame with that unpredictable pitch. I wouldn't bet on that happening, but that doubt has to factor in the amount years you give the guy.
    That's silly. He didn't do anything quickly. He's been working on the pitch for almost eight years now, and it's only over the last three that it's really come together. To assume that he's suddenly going to drop off is senseless.

    And I don't think we are one or two players away from being legit contenders, we need to build a new more talented younger core with Wright's veteran leadership leading the way. I don't know how we will acquire those offensive pieces without spending a ton of money without making deals.
    If our starting pitching comes together (Wheeler, Harvey, Niese, Dickey, Fifth) then all you need is timely hitting. San Francisco has proven that the last few years. In other words, we're not as far away as you think. And Dickey isn't bring back the haul you seem to think he will, either.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    If our starting pitching comes together (Wheeler, Harvey, Niese, Dickey, Fifth) then all you need is timely hitting. San Francisco has proven that the last few years. In other words, we're not as far away as you think. And Dickey isn't bring back the haul you seem to think he will, either.
    And a bullpen (2nd Worst ERA in the Major Leagues last year)

    It's not just timely hitting, the Mets obviously need better bats out there in the OF and at the catcher's spot.

    Something that will be difficult to accomplish when there is little financial flexibility for this offseason.

    Melky Cabrera just got 2yrs/16 million dollars (after being banned 50 games for steroid use), if that's the type of market it is for FA OF, we are screwed.

    Also in regards to the Giants, they get a lot of flack for being more of a timely hitting bunch then just being able to flat out hit. The Giants were 12th in the majors in runs scored, 5th in team BA, and 8th in the majors in OBP.

    They didn't hit home runs (mainly due to that cavernous AT&T park) but they could hit.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-16-2012 at 07:32 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodyHoopz View Post
    If you don't think Dickey is the second-best athlete on the team, I would offer that you're the one who should clarify. He routinely makes athletic plays in the field, runs in marathons and climbs mountains. What exactly is unathletic about him?

    And he's pitched (and pitched well) through the two injuries he's had in three seasons, so again I have to ask where you get the idea that he's anywhere near breaking down.

    Which is exactly why I didn't compare him to other knucklers. I compared him to a pair of NBA players.

    That's silly. He didn't do anything quickly. He's been working on the pitch for almost eight years now, and it's only over the last three that it's really come together. To assume that he's suddenly going to drop off is senseless.

    If our starting pitching comes together (Wheeler, Harvey, Niese, Dickey, Fifth) then all you need is timely hitting. San Francisco has proven that the last few years. In other words, we're not as far away as you think. And Dickey isn't bring back the haul you seem to think he will, either.
    I didn't say Dickey was unathletic, I said he's not the 2nd best athlete on the team. I'd say Kirk, Torres, Wright, Baxter, Cedeno, Santana, Niese, Harvey, Familia, and Mejia are better athletes than Dickey. Probably a few I missed, but that is how I feel.

    As Dickey ages more, he might not be able to pitch as well through the injuries, or he might sustain an injury he can't pitch through. Who knows?

    You can't compare baseball players to NBA players, it's much different.

    Dickey had a poor career and wasn't good the season before he came to the Mets. He figured out the pitch out of nowhere, and no one expected him to do anything.

    Our starting pitching will be great. Our hitting and bullpen will still likely suck, so we need help to make the playoffs, let alone the WS. The Mets play in the NL East, not the NL West so it's harder for us to make it.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post

    Dickey had a poor career and wasn't good the season before he came to the Mets. He figured out the pitch out of nowhere, and no one expected him to do anything.
    Might I suggest reading his memoir if you haven't already. (And if you have, maybe try re-reading it?)

    He didn't figure the pitch out of nowhere. It took him many years of hard, hard work and frustration to reach the point you saw in 2010. Sure, to you and me who never saw all this work, it seemingly came out of nowhere.

    But it didn't. It wasn't by luck Dickey became the first knuckleballer in history to win a Cy Young. It was by hard work, talent, and intelligence.

    He's no fluke.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Might I suggest reading his memoir if you haven't already. (And if you have, maybe try re-reading it?)

    He didn't figure the pitch out of nowhere. It took him many years of hard, hard work and frustration to reach the point you saw in 2010. Sure, to you and me who never saw all this work, it seemingly came out of nowhere.

    But it didn't. It wasn't by luck Dickey became the first knuckleballer in history to win a Cy Young. It was by hard work, talent, and intelligence.

    He's no fluke.
    I didn't say it was a fluke, but his excellence came out of nowhere. Otherwise he would have been a hot commodity.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    So you believe the Wilpons are committed to winning?
    I was going to say "Based upon your name and its obvious bias, I won't even honor your question with an answer." But I thought the better of it.

    Of course I believe they are committed to winning. I also believe they are under some severe financial constraints that prevent them from doing what they would like to do under different conditions. They proved that when they went out and spent big on free agents like Pedro and Beltran, Wagner and K-Rod, acquired Delgado despite the terrible, back-loaded contract the Marlins had saddled him with, and mis-spent on Bay, Ollie, Luis, etc. They love the Mets as much as you or I, maybe more, but poor decisions, both in and out of baseball have dealt them a severe blow.

    You probably disagree with me, and that's your right. But it troubles me when "fans" bad mouth them to the point of spewing venom, when they genuinely want this club to become winners again.
    Former B'klyn Dodger fan. Mets Maniac since 1962.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rio40 View Post
    The fear we all have is that they won't be able to afford him and will have to trade him for less value then he's worth. I'm not one the the super negative Mets fans and I'm not a super positive fan like you are. I am a realist. As of now they have shown me nothing regarding putting a good team on the field.

    They knew they couldn't sign Reyes but they didn't trade him for fear of losing ticket sales. Not doing what is best for their team is pathetic.

    If the mets can't afford dickey and other teams know it the mets will not get fair value in prospects fr Dickey.
    If Dickey and Alderson can't come to terms on an extension (meaning they either can't afford him OR don't think he is worth what he insists on getting) they will trade him. What they get back in prospects will have nothing to do with "whether other teams know". In the free enterprise system, supply and demand govern the price. There is only 1 NL Cy Young winner, and a runaway winner at that. There are at least 12 teams that covet him. Believe me, the Mets will get a great return for Dickey regardless of whether they choose to or are forced to trade him.

    I continue to believe that Alderson believed, at the start of the 2011 season and through July, that he had a shot at resigning Jose. The Marlins offer was outrageous, as proven by recent events. If the market for Reyes was a normal one, we would have at least tried to compete to sign him.

    And lastly, they showed me that they made a strong effort to put a good (actually more than just good) team on the field back when they had the resources to do so. Remember, in 2006 they were within one strike of going to the World Series, and in 2007 they were the pre-season consensus pick to win the division and go on to the Series.
    Former B'klyn Dodger fan. Mets Maniac since 1962.

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