Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time list?

[JordansBulls]

Pretty sure Pippen was always an All-Star level player when MJ won his titles irregardless if he made the popularity game or not.

And so was Marion and Kidd as well Thorpe who made it as well.

[Manimal]

Isaiah. He has been buried because of the feuds with Jordan and Magic. But Isaiah is remarkably under rated. He beat Bird, Magic and Jordan and didn't go around recruiting stars to do it. Also Isaiah was the man on his teams unlike Wade who's been demoted to sidekick.

He's a horrible person by all accounts of the media. But as a player and a competitor Isaiah is one of the finest the NBA has seen.

[jericho]

And anyone who wants to bring up the 88 Finals needs to remember just how good Wade was in the 2006 Finals. I've been watching the NBA since 1994 and that may be the single greatest performance by an individual player in an NBA Finals I've ever seen.

how many times do we have to bring that the refs really help dwade that series. yeah that stats give wade a lot of credit but the video part gives the refs a lot of credit 2

[jericho]

lol the poll is full of fail, must of been a bunch of knicks/laker fans voting. to bad its not public.

or maybe just maybe is people that appreciate basketball history

[ManRam]

The Pistons were #3 in the league and #2 in the league when they won chips in 88 and 89. The Heat were 9th when they won their chip. That holds weight with me.



See this is where I fundamentally disagree with you and many others. It's to a point where I'm feeling the need to start a thread. Accolades are meaningful and to just dismiss 12 straight all-star games is irresponsible.



Yeah he's a better passer. Like... twice as better. And assists lead to points. And points win games. The way you dismiss the fact that Zeke was getting almost 2x as many assists is ridiculous. That's essentially 12 points per game which is more than enough to swing games and titles.

1. Those teams were tremendous defensively for reasons mainly that have nothing to do with Zeke. Those defenses weren't great or average because of either of these two guys. Defense is more of a team accomplishment than offense...it really takes a unit. Zeke was a good defender, but he wasn't the life force of that defense. If you want accolades, Zeke has literally none for his defensive efforts, Wade has a few.

2. I'm not trying to completely ignore his 12 straight All-Stars, that is impressive. I'm just saying Wade has 8 in a row right now, and that will probably get very close to 12 himself.

3. Comparing a PG to a SG in terms of passing is hard. Wade is a tremendous passer for his position. He's currently 12th among active players in assists, and every single person above him is a PG besides LeBron. "Twice the passer", assuming you're just basing it on APG, is a bit of a stretch. Zeke is a top 5 passer of all time, but Wade is pretty elite compared to his position as well (maybe only LeBron, Bird and Theus are better passing non-PGs in the history of the game).

The defense of Zeke over Wade I think ultimately comes down to assists, and once you realize how great Wade actually is of a passer considering the position he plays, I think the arguments start to run out. I'll even call defense a wash. Wade's efficiency is just astronomically higher than Zeke's. We're talking a 56.5% TS% compared to 51.6%. We're talking a 25.7 PER compared to an 18.1 PER. We're talking a .195 WS/48 compared to a .109. We're talking higher OWS and DWS. Literally, every basic advanced metric that you can find on b-r.com favors Wade. Literally evey single one of them (BLK%, TRB%, TOV%, eFG% etc.).

I do sometimes hate using stats, but there is such a glaring difference here. Wade also, in my opinion, has been the far superior playoff performer too. Zeke had some incredibly memorable runs there, but it's nothing that Wade can't top.

I think we're letting team success carry us away here with Zeke. He was a tremendous individual player and a great leader and PG, but I'm seeing too much "HE beat Magic, Jordan and Bird" and "HE was the leader of the defense". He might have been the emotional leader of those teams, but there were a lot of equally important pieces.

We'll agree to disagree! I'm sure the reality is neither of us are as right as we think we are.

[KnicksorBust]

1. Those teams were tremendous defensively for reasons mainly that have nothing to do with Zeke. Those defenses weren't great or average because of either of these two guys. Defense is more of a team accomplishment than offense...it really takes a unit. Zeke was a good defender, but he wasn't the life force of that defense. If you want accolades, Zeke has literally none for his defensive efforts, Wade has a few.

2. I'm not trying to completely ignore his 12 straight All-Stars, that is impressive. I'm just saying Wade has 8 in a row right now, and that will probably get very close to 12 himself.

3. Comparing a PG to a SG in terms of passing is hard. Wade is a tremendous passer for his position. He's currently 12th among active players in assists, and every single person above him is a PG besides LeBron. "Twice the passer", assuming you're just basing it on APG, is a bit of a stretch. Zeke is a top 5 passer of all time, but Wade is pretty elite compared to his position as well (maybe only LeBron, Bird and Theus are better passing non-PGs in the history of the game).

The defense of Zeke over Wade I think ultimately comes down to assists, and once you realize how great Wade actually is of a passer considering the position he plays, I think the arguments start to run out. I'll even call defense a wash. Wade's efficiency is just astronomically higher than Zeke's. We're talking a 56.5% TS% compared to 51.6%. We're talking a 25.7 PER compared to an 18.1 PER. We're talking a .195 WS/48 compared to a .109. We're talking higher OWS and DWS. Literally, every basic advanced metric that you can find on b-r.com favors Wade. Literally evey single one of them (BLK%, TRB%, TOV%, eFG% etc.).

I do sometimes hate using stats, but there is such a glaring difference here. Wade also, in my opinion, has been the far superior playoff performer too. Zeke had some incredibly memorable runs there, but it's nothing that Wade can't top.

I think we're letting team success carry us away here with Zeke. He was a tremendous individual player and a great leader and PG, but I'm seeing too much "HE beat Magic, Jordan and Bird" and "HE was the leader of the defense". He might have been the emotional leader of those teams, but there were a lot of equally important pieces.

We'll agree to disagree! I'm sure the reality is neither of us are as right as we think we are.

Just for the record, I voted Wade 2 days ago. Great post though.

[JordansBulls]

I didn't expect Isiah to be beating out Wade here.

[JordansBulls]

1. Those teams were tremendous defensively for reasons mainly that have nothing to do with Zeke. Those defenses weren't great or average because of either of these two guys. Defense is more of a team accomplishment than offense...it really takes a unit. Zeke was a good defender, but he wasn't the life force of that defense. If you want accolades, Zeke has literally none for his defensive efforts, Wade has a few.

2. I'm not trying to completely ignore his 12 straight All-Stars, that is impressive. I'm just saying Wade has 8 in a row right now, and that will probably get very close to 12 himself.

3. Comparing a PG to a SG in terms of passing is hard. Wade is a tremendous passer for his position. He's currently 12th among active players in assists, and every single person above him is a PG besides LeBron. "Twice the passer", assuming you're just basing it on APG, is a bit of a stretch. Zeke is a top 5 passer of all time, but Wade is pretty elite compared to his position as well (maybe only LeBron, Bird and Theus are better passing non-PGs in the history of the game).

The defense of Zeke over Wade I think ultimately comes down to assists, and once you realize how great Wade actually is of a passer considering the position he plays, I think the arguments start to run out. I'll even call defense a wash. Wade's efficiency is just astronomically higher than Zeke's. We're talking a 56.5% TS% compared to 51.6%. We're talking a 25.7 PER compared to an 18.1 PER. We're talking a .195 WS/48 compared to a .109. We're talking higher OWS and DWS. Literally, every basic advanced metric that you can find on b-r.com favors Wade. Literally evey single one of them (BLK%, TRB%, TOV%, eFG% etc.).

I do sometimes hate using stats, but there is such a glaring difference here. Wade also, in my opinion, has been the far superior playoff performer too. Zeke had some incredibly memorable runs there, but it's nothing that Wade can't top.

I think we're letting team success carry us away here with Zeke. He was a tremendous individual player and a great leader and PG, but I'm seeing too much "HE beat Magic, Jordan and Bird" and "HE was the leader of the defense". He might have been the emotional leader of those teams, but there were a lot of equally important pieces.

We'll agree to disagree! I'm sure the reality is neither of us are as right as we think we are.

Isiah won 2 titles, however Dumars won Finals MVP for their first title. In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever. How does a guy get most of the credit for carrying his team when he finishes 4th in Win Shares?

[ManRam]

Isiah won 2 titles, however Dumars won Finals MVP for their first title. In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever. How does a guy get most of the credit for carrying his team when he finishes 4th in Win Shares?

The hell if I know...

I don't get it. Zeke is great...but he's not in Wade's league.

[JordansBulls]

I think people just like to underrate Wade all the time as if he is some second tier star. The guy has been top 3 at least 5-6 years in the league. He was the best player 1 year and 2nd best a few years.

[SLY WILLIAMS]

I find it hard to compare these 2 players so I will not vote. With that said if Isiah was 4th in any team statistic then I question the relevance of that stat in that context because Isiah was far and away the best/most important player on those teams. I remember how awful Detroit was before Isiah. Isiah scored 16 points in like 90 seconds to take Bernard and the Knicks in to playoff overtime one year. That was insane. Many Knicks fans hated Isiah. Many Bulls fans hated Isiah. Many Celtics fans hated Isiah but most also knew how great a player he was at that time.

[thevcballer]

Wade

[JordansBulls]

I find it hard to compare these 2 players so I will not vote. With that said if Isiah was 4th in any team statistic then I question the relevance of that stat in that context because Isiah was far and away the best/most important player on those teams. I remember how awful Detroit was before Isiah. Isiah scored 16 points in like 90 seconds to take Bernard and the Knicks in to playoff overtime one year. That was insane. Many Knicks fans hated Isiah. Many Bulls fans hated Isiah. Many Celtics fans hated Isiah but most also knew how great a player he was at that time.

Not saying I disagree, but those stats support the upper players in the league.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...48_yearly.html

all of those players are stars.

[hidalgo]

it's pretty close, almost a tie, but i gotta give the slightest edge to Isiah Thomas, mainly because i feel him taking his team to 3 finals as the best player on the team & winning 2 is the tie breaker. plus like a few people mentioned, the bad boys beat much tougher teams to get there (Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Jordan's Bulls). i do think the Bulls guys like Grant & Pippen hadn't developed yet, & had the Pistons played the Bulls from 1991 on they'd have lost. and i think if Pippen didn't have the migrane that made him beyond worthless in game 7 of the 1990 ECF the Bulls would have won 4 straight titles. but still gotta give Isiah & the Pistons credit for what happened & who they beat. the Bulls payed them back soon enough. classic rivalry

[JordansBulls]

it's pretty close, almost a tie, but i gotta give the slightest edge to Isiah Thomas, mainly because i feel him taking his team to 3 finals as the best player on the team & winning 2 is the tie breaker. plus like a few people mentioned, the bad boys beat much tougher teams to get there (Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Jordan's Bulls). i do think the Bulls guys like Grant & Pippen hadn't developed yet, & had the Pistons played the Bulls from 1991 on they'd have lost. and i think if Pippen didn't have the migrane that made him beyond worthless in game 7 of the 1990 ECF the Bulls would have won 4 straight titles. but still gotta give Isiah & the Pistons credit for what happened & who they beat. the Bulls payed them back soon enough. classic rivalry

If Isiah was the best player on the squad it wasn't statistically. It was mainly because of leadership.